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LEO: Hello everyone and welcome to Changing the Frame. We’re your hosts. My name is Leo Torre and I use he/they pronouns. 

INDIGO: My name is Indigo Korres and I use she/her pronouns. We’re a podcast that discusses trans and non-binary experiences in the film industries. Every episode will count with the appearance of a trans and/or non-binary multimedia artist in the film industries to talk about their work. We’re really excited to share these amazing stories and talks and discussions with you all. 

LEO: Today we have an incredible guest, Jack Goessens. They’re a Dutch-born, UK-based writer, director, and editor. His short film, Everyman was commissioned through the Scottish Documentary Institute’s Bridging the Gap program and won multiple awards. It’s screened at over a dozen BAFTA and Oscar qualifying festivals around the world. His next short, Who I Am Now, was funded by Creative Scotland and Leap and premiered at the Edinburgh International Film Festival. 

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INDIGO: This is Changing The Frame.

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INDIGO: Thank you so much, Jack, for taking your time to talk to us today. I was wondering if you could start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your background, hobbies, and other creative practices that you’re interested in. 

JACK: Yeah. Well thanks for having me. So I’m originally from the Netherlands and I moved to Scotland when I was 20 to study film at the Royal Conservatoire. And… and I feel like whenever people ask me about my hobbies, I’m always really dull because it feels like every, everything you can like pull back to storytelling and you, cool… you know, it is all related and I feel like I want, you know, I want hobbies that, that aren’t, but it always, you know, it naturally kind of like flow towards that again. So I guess like whenever I have hobbies, I try and like, it sounds kind of weird, but I try and like centre them a bit on kind of more like self-care, like stuff that isn’t work, if that makes sense. Because it’s like whenever you read a book, it’s like, oh, this is an interesting story. How can I tell a story like this? Or you’re watching a film or you’re watching a TV show, and it’s like, oh, how can I, you know, how I would like to do something like this. Go to the theatre…. Literally, like everything that I enjoy is always, goes back to storytelling, even like playing games. Although actually I’m, I think I’m one of the few people I enjoy games for, for just like, I, I prefer it not to have a story basically, but I think this is why, because there’s too many stories in my life 

LEO: That’s so interesting. Cause I personally play video games that are all about the storytelling instead, all of it. Yeah. 

JACK: No, I think you are normal. And I’m not. 

LEO: I don’t, I don’t think it’s abnormal. It’s just like. Yeah. Escapism in a different way, I guess.

JACK: Yeah.

LEO: What made you pursue filmmaking and what roadblocks did you face when you were starting out?

JACK: I, I think it was kind of, it was kind of like an organic progression where I started acting. I was like acting in school and I thought that was really fun. And then I thought that might be something that I wanted to do. And then, I started making films so I could learn how to like act for screen and I, so that I’d had something to act in. But then I was like, well, I enjoyed this actually. So then I kind of naturally fell into it. And I think I got really lucky because I got into film school on my first goal, and I think all the barriers kind of happened after graduation. And I think it’s, the barriers that I always kind of struggle with is kind of like the next step. So it’s, it’s that classic, like you don’t have the, you don’t have the experience to do it, but you are ready to do it, but you don’t have to experience, so they won’t let you do it. And the kind of classic, related to that, because I, I think right, once you step it up, you have to like step up like budget level and then you’re not getting the funding and then when you get the funding, you’re kind of into the next bracket already, but you’re not getting that one. And, and yeah, I think it’s that kind of, you’re always one step behind on where you are, where you feel you are, I suppose. 

INDIGO: Yeah. It’s interesting to hear that you started in acting and also you are in all the films that we’ve seen, so in Everyman you’re, well, it, the documentary is about your transition, but also, in Who I Am Now I saw you in the background…

JACK: Yes. 

INDIGO: As an extra as well, which I thought was cool and we might talk a bit about that later as well. Yeah. So Everyman is about your own experiences and Who I Am Now is heavily based on Adam’s experiences cause we were watching the Ted Talk that Adam gave the other day. And…

JACK: Yeah.

INDIGO: his story is pretty much told by, word by word from the Ted Talk in the film. Yeah. So why did you decide to bring personal and individual stories to the screen in those films? 

JACK: Yeah, I guess they, each of those films is kind of a different answer. And then I guess there’s kind of also like a unifying answer to that as well. With Everyman, I actually wasn’t going to make it about me. I was going to speak to all sorts of different, you know, just a variety of different trans people and, and ask them about their experiences related to, you know, with the kind of things that you noticed while you’ve transitioned and how, you know, life is different once you’re perceived as the other gender effectively. And that was, that was always the premise of it. But once I got into the development scheme with SDI, I tried that and I tried to speak to different people. And their argument came from the start was, we don’t think you should be doing this because it’s only 10 minutes and you can’t go in depth enough if you’re talking to different people, and we also think that you should actually just make it about yourself because we feel like you have something specific that you want to say. I mean, and these were all suggestions, right? This wasn’t forceful at any point. Like I did go and I did speak to other people and it was actually while I was speaking to other people that I noticed as well, I almost wanted them to give certain answers cause I was like, do you have this as well? Like, cause that means that I can put it in my film. And then I was like, yeah, they’re right. This doesn’t make any sense. I should just tell, I should just say… well, to say I should just tell the story that I want to tell. But I guess I was kind of scared of being on the screen. And then another thing about making it personal and, and this kind of applies to both of the films, is that if you go, the more specific you go, the more universal something becomes. And I think something that I tried to do with all my films is, I try because I, I think trans topics, I’ve seen as like so controversial that I try and make it by going really specific and trying and finding universal themes, I’m hoping that we aren’t seen as controversial anymore, and people are like, oh yeah, actually I can relate to this. You know, like, I’m not, you know, maybe even people are like, I’m not trans. I don’t, I don’t know anything about this, but I understand what you’re talking about. So I guess that’s what I sometimes trying to do. With Who I Am Now, that was slightly different because Who I Am Now is originally a project that Reece was doing with a writer director called Zan Scott, who unfortunately passed away. And, and they were developing with Adam quite closely to this, this story. And then when Zan passed away, Reece came to me and Michael and was like, I still want to do something with this, with Adam. And then redeveloped the story from there. And for me, one big thing was that the story was always focused on, on being a refugee, and I’m like, but the three of us are not refugees. So I don’t think we should be telling this story. You know, I’m an immigrant in this, in this country. So I try to kind of focus a bit more on, on the things where there’s overlap in that, where it’s like I, you know, this is a story that I can tell because I, you know, I also live it. Yeah. So we needed, and we, the, we wanted Adam’s input there basically as well, because it’s like, you know, at the end of the day it, it was, it is still a story about trans refugees. So, to make that, authentic, he, you know, we need his input for that because otherwise we we’re not the people to tell that. 

LEO: Yeah, that makes sense. We are gonna focus a little bit of… on Everyman right now. We have a couple of questions about the film first, and then we can talk about Who I Am Now again. But we were looking into the form of the film as well as like the content of it, and we noticed that Everyman mixes your own piece-to-camera testimonials with dreamy and colourful visuals that break down gendered expectations. And we would like to know why you chose this style for the film, and whether you chose any other type of forms of documentary storytelling. 

JACK: Yeah, I, I think, a big part of the style comes from the fact that my background is actually in, in high-end drama. I work as an, as an editor. And I usually make fiction films, so, I had this idea for this film that I felt worked better as a documentary, and I’m not, and I, and I like to play with form, so for me it made sense to, to make this film. But I, I’m still making in that kind of like style where I like to kind of…. I mean, I’m basically just a control freak. I like to, you know, make a set and then be like, right, I’m gonna write a script and I’m gonna, I’m gonna do it this way even though it’s a documentary. And then part of it being kind of like dreamy visuals, it is because I basically just didn’t know how to verbalise the story. But I, what I wanted to come across is the way that things feel and felt. I thought. The, the way that I, the only way that I can communicate these things is with these kind of visuals that make sense to me, and hopefully make sense to other people. So that was kind of the thought behind that.

INDIGO: Yeah. In Everyman as well, there’s loads of references of mythology and religion. In terms of showing the Venus and Mars in the Garden of Eden, and also showing like the apple in the end. Is there any particular reason that you felt drawn to explore gendered rose of masculinity and femininity through those lenses as well?

JACK: Yeah, I think when you’re making a film visual short hands are really handy to, to like explain complex concepts. So that’s, that’s kind of what I was trying to do. You know, imagery that people understand and that people have a certain feeling with and have a certain, you know, kind of ideas around. Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to do was because, like, I I personally don’t identify in, in a, in a exclusively binary sense. But the story that I was telling, that I was trying to talk about, you know, about our world that is like, you know, we do live in a society that’s set up as a binary world, that does work like that. So I was almost trying to like use these kind of extreme images to kind of almost highlight that it doesn’t, does it, doesn’t work, if that makes sense. You know? And almost just like throwing your, kind of throw it in the audience’s face to highlight the gray in between almost. I don’t know if that makes sense.

LEO: I think it does. I think it does. Because the figures of Venus and Mars are so recognizable and it goes back to what you were saying about making it relatable for everybody. So the film really highlighted the, the binary and then the idea of you kind of being in the middle through Adam’s, you know, interpretation of the story. It’s, it’s very good. And now that we’re speaking about gender roles and masculinity and femininity in the film, do you think Everyman has helped you explore your own identity any deeper? 

JACK: That’s quite interesting because I think, I think I’ve always had a fairly strong sense of identity. I’ve been kind of lucky that way. But it has been very cathartic having to kind of mine through these memories and cause I was scripting it, so I was, I was trying to find kind of memories that were relevant and that were, that kind of said something. And I did, like, when while I was writing it, I, like, I did find myself like crying at one point cause I was like clearly processing something. So I think in that way, like it did, it was kind of therapeutic, more than anything. 

INDIGO: It’s interesting cause Everyman focuses more on yourself, but Who I Am Now focuses more on Adam’s experiences. And Who I Am Now, we’re just gonna talk a little bit about that film now. But there is usually a lot of talk around visibility when it comes to representing trans stories in film, but we felt that in this film it focuses more on the recognition from the people that have known, like the past lives of the characters on screen. So why did you choose to focus on that instead of the other types of visibility that we see on trans films at the moment? 

JACK: Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of interesting because I, I don’t, I hadn’t thought of it like that. You know, now that you mention it, I’m like, I guess that, I guess that is right. I mean, for me it was very much, you know, coming back to what I said earlier where I, I didn’t want to be imposing on a, on a refugee story that I couldn’t tell. So me and Adam sat down and we talked about things that we experience as foreigners in this country. And you know, we didn’t even talk so much about being trans cuz it’s almost like, kind of like, yeah, you know, we, we know. Like, it was kind of interesting. It was almost like, oh, yeah, we were kind of like, oh, do you experience it like this? And do you, do you feel this? He asked me a really interesting question where he was like, do you feel like you’ve lost… you’ve had to put away like part of your identity? And I was like, that is really interesting because yes, because that is being, you know, being a foreigner and, you know, obviously being trans is, is, is about identity. And I thought that was a really interesting question and I, I think it’s not necessarily like addressed in the film, but it is something that I had in the back of my mind and that I spoke to Michael about when they’re writing it. So I dunno if that answers your question, but…

LEO: Yeah, it does. It does. And nationality is also an identity and I think both Indigo and I can relate as well because I’m obviously from Spain and Indigo is from Brazil. So we all share that part of the story as well, being foreigners and trans and we can see that recognition in each other. And I feel like when we watched the film, we were like, this is really good because it, it hits, it hits home in a sense. I was gonna ask about the animation on Who I Am Now. Was there a specific reason for bringing that medium into the film? 

JACK: Yes. So one thing that I felt was really important is, cause this is a… it’s a really dark story. There’s, you know, the really dark things happen in it, and I didn’t want it to be triggering for the people watching it. So I was never gonna show it. You know, they were gonna tell the story and I was, I’m never gonna show it, like, with like straight dramatic flashbacks, that was never gonna be it. I was gonna do either something abstract or I was gonna do animation basically, and I ended up choosing animation, because I saw Holly, Holly Summerson’s Acceptable Face and I, I just thought the, this, this abstract style was saying so much and yet, it was very, it was, it’s really soft. She’s got a really soft style. And I thought I wanted that contrast where you know, the story is about the way that we as queer people tell these stories to each other and the way that we share it with each other, and we have that shorthand. Like we would never go into like explicit details because you don’t need to, like, you don’t need to finish the sentence. You don’t need to… you, you already understand. And that’s, that’s what I was trying to do with the animation as well. You know, thinking about the audience as people that are gonna be watching this are gonna be people that have potentially been through this. And like, the last thing that you need when you’re watching a, a film is like to be thrown into PTSD. Which I hope avoids this. And then still you can see yourself on screen, you know? 

INDIGO: Yeah, that’s a really good point. It’s very interesting to hear though, because when we see Adam and Denisa???? on screen, we only see like community love and kind of sharing that, you know, yeah, just coming into love and found family and I like that you talked about that on the synopsis as well and how that’s so important for the film. Cause it kind of explores different ways that we as trans people explore family. Be it through the family that we’re born into or the family that we make from friends. So how do you feel about Founds family and how did you want to explore that in your films? 

JACK: Yeah, it’s, it’s something that I think we quite and we talk about quite a lot in, in, within the LGBT community. And I think it’s, again, something we don’t talk about as much as, you know, kind of immigrants in this country? I think the loneliest time, like the, the loneliest kind of, that I’ve ever felt has been whenever I was here during the summer and the kind of LGBT events would stop and everyone would go back home and then there would be absolutely nothing like that, like loneliness. I’ve like never felt anything as extreme as that. And it is like, because you know, your family’s in a different country and your kind of replacement LGBT family is on hold as well. And I, I think that always like really emphasised for me how important it. to, you know, to have these communities and to have that, yeah, just new, new newfound family actually, so that, that always tied into this story. Yeah. Cause it’s, again, overlap. 

LEO: The big overlap. And speaking of found family, we noticed that you have brought Adam Kashmiry into your cast twice and that you’ve worked with Reece Cargan from Bombito Productions twice too. And we would like to know how you choose or what the process for selecting your cast and crew is like when you begin a project.

JACK: Yeah, I, I mean, I, I do, first and foremost, I do think about who is right for the project. So, you know, with, with Adam in both projects, I needed a trans-masculine person. So it, it made sense. But also, you know, Adam was attached in, in the case of Who I Am Now, Adam was already in, you know, he was a big part of the story, so he was, he was always gonna be in the film. And with, with Reese, you know, I, I really like having a, a queer producer and we just really get along and I, I think that is another important element where, you know, I have other people that I repeatedly collaborate with who aren’t necessarily queer that I just work with really well. And I think, and they understand the story and I think, that is something really important well, as well where, you know, I have this kind of shorthand with them and I know that they’re gonna give me what, what I, what I want, and they understand my sensibilities. So it’s always that kind of like balancing act of like someone that you, you can work with well, and someone who is right for the story as well. So that’s, that’s, yeah, that, those are my considerations basically. 

INDIGO: That’s amazing. And as an independent filmmaker working with independent artists as well, accessing funds can be really hard. Could we hear more about Everyman being produced under the SDI, so the Scottish Documentary Institute program Bridging The Gap, and also how did you access funding for Who I Am Now?

JACK: Yeah. I mean, I should probably mention that I graduated in 2014 and I didn’t get funding until, yeah, 2020 was when I got the funding for, for Everyman. So there’s like, there’s six years there that I was trying to make stuff and trying to get things off the ground. And when I graduated it was definitely that kind of thing where, because the equipment that the conservator was so high quality and the, the logical next step, you know, what I was saying earlier about kind of, you know, challenging yourself and stepping up, was to make a funded film. And for six years, I, I, I couldn’t do that because I didn’t get the, the money. And I guess like, I, I don’t even know how I, I just got really lucky cuz it was SDI, I was kind of out of the box thinking, like I had this idea for a documentary and I was like, I’ll just apply at that point. I, you know, I’ve written like 30 applications, I’ll just do another one. So I was really happy that I got it on the, on the first go. And they have a three month development program, which is really helpful as well. During that development program. They also teach you how to get funding. So it’s, it’s slightly ironic because you’re already in the, in the running at that point. But it’s, it’s good because obviously it’s not, it’s not the first time and it’s not, well, it’s the first time, but it’s not the last time. And, so that was, so they’re developing a project and there’s developing you as a filmmaker as well, and then there’s a pitch at the end of it. And not everyone gets funded unfortunately, but at that point you do have a really good project that you can pitch somewhere else. And some people that were in my cohort that didn’t get selected did then get funding somewhere else. So that’s really good. And then with Who I Am Now, that was all Reece. He, he was, he was also thinking out of the box and he found a, the Create:Inclusion Fund fund on Creative Scotland and they were specifically looking for diversity projects. So he, he, he got it. So that, and I, I think one of the things that I learned, and probably why we ended up getting this funding is I once had a conversation with BFI Network, talking about, you know, struggling to get funding. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, like how I can do this. And the answer I got at the time was, you know, it feels like there’s only one pot that like makes sense to apply to, but if you’re repeatedly not getting that, then maybe your projects aren’t right for it. Like, maybe they’re not what, what, you know, it’s not what they’re looking for. And that doesn’t mean that it’s bad. It’s just, you know, it’s not ticking a box somewhere. So try somewhere else because you know, if you are, if it doesn’t suit, then it’s not gonna be a good collaboration either, because you’re gonna have to work with execs, you’re gonna have to take their notes, you’re gonna, you know, and if, if it’s not the right fit, then it’s not gonna be good for your project either. So I, I, that’s when I started thinking out of the box, and that apparently works.

INDIGO: I love that you mentioned that there was six years in between from getting your first funding for, to produce your own film. What other projects were you working on in between or other work that you were doing? Because I talked to lots of freelancers and they are always doing all sorts of jobs. So I was wondering what sorts of jobs do you do? I know you do some editing and you’re working on a Netflix show right now. But I was wondering what other things have you done in this, in the, during those six years?

JACK: Yeah, so it was kind of like, it was like I always, I’m basically split in two, and I’m still split in two. I basically work in post production. That’s, that’s basically from graduation, I worked my way up. I was a trainee on Outlander and now I’m editing Outlander. I actually just finished that Netflix show. So that’s like one side of me. And then, the other side is where I developed my writing directing projects. So I had a, I set a goal for myself that I needed to make a film every year. So I did, I made, I think I did three music videos, and then I did, yeah, I did about a short every year. And then I’m, I’m, I’m not too strict about it. So the, the music video would count and doing a 48 hour film project would count. And yeah. And because I didn’t make it as strict, sometimes I would end up with two, you know, I’d be like, oh, I’ve got a 48 hour film, and I’ve got a film, or I’ve got a music video. And I thought, you know, it doesn’t have to be, I’m not gonna be precious about it. It doesn’t have to be the, you know, the, the most amazing film ever, but at least I’ve made something and I’ve learned something and I can, you know, progress basically. So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s what I did in that time, basically. 

LEO: I think that’s such a good way of going about it cause you’re setting realistic goals for yourself, but staying flexible at the same time. How is your way of exploring gender through filmmaking different from other filmmakers, do you think? What do you bring to the table that’s new and exciting?

JACK: I know that’s a really, I mean, that’s a really tricky question. I always, you know, I can’t even, like, I can’t even describe my own style, which I always ask other people. I’m like, can you just, can you describe my style because I have no idea? I think it’s really, I think it’s really fun to see a lot of trans filmmakers coming up and exploring gender in their work. And I think it’s amazing to see how different we all are. And I, I think it’s because, well, I, at least I can only talk about gender from the way that I experience gender. Like I can’t speak for other people. So I try and keep it really personal and I try, and I, and I think cuz I’m not, I don’t feel like I’m great with words, I always end up kind of doing kind of dreamy and weird stuff and cuz I just have this, I try and show my perspective in, in, in the films, which is kind of always a bit weird and wonky. And I think that that makes, it makes it a bit different cuz it’s just like, it’s just basically very me that and that, I don’t mean that in a pretentious way, I just mean that it’s a, you know, we’re all different personalities, so you make a different film. 

LEO: Well you say weird and wonky, but I think it’s weird and wonky in like the most beautiful way cuz every man really hit close to home for me as well with my own gender. So can still see each other represented even though the films are different.

JACK: Yeah.

LEO: These filmmaking styles were differing and everything, so yeah.

JACK: That’s nice to hear.

INDIGO: As a trans filmmaker. What impact do you want your films to have, like both within the trans community and in general? Cuz your films are shown everywhere now. 

JACK: I think it’s kind of like two-sided, so I hope, you know, there’s always this hope that people within the trans community, will enjoy it and will relate to it. I feel like that’s the tallest order because it’s, you know, you, you can’t represent everyone. And, and there will definitely be someone who is like, I don’t, I don’t identify with this, that you’re saying, which I’ve luckily not had yet. Like I’ve luckily not had anyone who like got mad at me and was like, this is not what repeating trans is like. I was like, that’s honestly my biggest fear. But yeah, so I, I, you know, I hope that people enjoy seeing themselves on screen. And then I also, I… For me, filmmaking is kind of like, is very much a way to express myself and try and, you know, process my feelings and try and kind of explain my feelings to others. And I, and I, and I hope that basically non-trans audiences will also get something out of it. And I think that’s also a tall order, but I’m definitely not trying to convince any gender criticals. But you know, more people that are already kind of open-minded but might not fully understand. It’s like, well, okay, well then maybe I can show you something, if that makes sense.

LEO: It does, it does. In what way do you think it is harder for minority, minority identities to tell their stories? 

JACK: Yeah, that’s, that’s quite interesting because I think it comes down to what I was saying about filmmaking kind of relying on shorthand. So, you know, we’re called underrepresented voices because we’ve not, you know, our stories haven’t been told that much yet, so there is no shorthand yet. And I think that is sometimes difficult when you are trying to explain your idea to people that are, I don’t want to call them gatekeepers because I think it’s just kind of part of the, you know, the process of getting something made and you know, you need to get people on board. You need to explain it to your crew as well. You need to explain it to your cast. You can’t assume that people are just gonna get it. And if there isn’t no examples, cuz people are always like, oh, well what’s your film about? You, you’re meant to pitch it as well, it’s Titanic meets Avatar. I dunno, you know, you’re always kind of meant to pitch like something like that, but if it hasn’t been done, then how are you meant to pitch it? And you can’t, you also can’t say, well, I’m wildly original, because that’s also not true. You’re just, you’re telling a story that just hasn’t… and I think that’s really tricky. That holds you back. Yeah. I also, there’s also like a bit of, I mean I guess that comes down to the same thing I was gonna say, kind of recognition. I guess it’s to do with, with trust. Like do you trust the audience to understand something that, that they’ve not experienced yet? And there’s so many people involved in the process that some people, they don’t trust it and some people do trust it. I don’t know if that makes sense. I can give an example. I one time pitched a, a short film and the story was, you know, it was that kind of classic lesbian falls for a straight girl. And the two have kind of like a relationship and you know, it was never really defined as in is the straight girl maybe actually gay or is the straight girl leading her on. Like, it wasn’t anything like that. It wasn’t, it was just about two people having a moment. And it was about, you know, ambiguous, you know, sexuality like, cuz I believe that, you know, sexuality is also like a spectrum and it, there’s gray in between and it’s about individuals, blah, blah, blah. And that was what the film was about. And people got it, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like, sometimes it is very easy to say like, oh, well an older generation wouldn’t get this. But I actually spoke to like an older cishet man and he was like, I’ve totally had a moment like this was like, oh, you know, a woman at one point. And I was like, great, you know, get it. So I get to the pitch and everyone was like on board and then one person said, look like I’m just not, I, I’m not just not into this because the sexuality of your, your character is just too ambiguous. Like, is she straight? Is she, what is she, like? I need to know what she is and how do we know that she’s that? And I was like, well, she’s straight. She said she’s straight. You know, if, if a character says, tells you that, you just have to go with that. And she’s like, well, then I don’t understand what this is about. And I was like, this is about ambiguous sexuality. And she’s like, well, it’s too ambiguous. And I was like, no, but that’s what it, that’s what it is. Like, and you know, maybe I hadn’t done it well enough, but, you know, maybe the, maybe now if I wrote it, I would do, I would be able to convince something, but so on. But it is that kind of thing where, you know, I’m trying to, you know, we try and tell something, a story as minorities that basically, that people, they don’t understand the language, they don’t understand, yeah. And it’s really difficult to explain to them cuz I, I think she even said, I do get it, but how is an audience gonna get that? How are you gonna show this? And I’m like, well, I’ve got it on the page. You’ve got it on the page, so you have to trust me that you also gotta understand it on screen. So that’s really tricky and you know, there’s like a way of pitching it, and I didn’t know how to pitch it at the time, but that’s basically, you don’t just have to learn the skills of how to be a filmmaker. You also have to learn how to explain something that’s just not really explainable, if that makes sense.

INDIGO: Yeah, it does make sense. Um, and it’s good to hear other ideas that you have as well.

JACK: That’s a very old one.

INDIGO: But thinking of different ideas and looking at the future, what hopes and expectations do you have for your career? Do you have any new projects at the horizon that we can expect in the next year or so? because I love your work and I would love to see more of your films.

JACK: Oh, thanks very much. Yeah, I mean, I’m, that story I’ve actually put in my feature. So that’s an element of my feature that I’m developing with Short Circuit at the moment. So we’ve gone through early development and we’re now in further development. I think I’m allowed to say that. Yeah, it doesn’t matter. We’re working towards first draft now, basically. So, so yeah, hopefully, I mean, at some point that, I mean, there’s no guarantees, but hopefully one day that will be, that will be shot and I’ll be making a feature basically. 

INDIGO: That’s incredible. I can’t wait to see it. 

LEO: Extremely exciting. Yeah. Hopefully it will all be in the correct path for you to shoot the feature. Do you have any advice you would like to share with new trans creators about how to get started with their work? 

JACK: Yeah, I think my advice is always, you know, the same thing that I basically said myself, like, you just, you just need to do it. And, I think I, I got stuck myself on, you want some kind of per… you, you’re kind of looking for permission, I guess, in a way. And like your script is never good enough. You’re like, oh, just do another draft. You know? And you just need to kind of set deadline for yourself and you’re like, right, I’m making something this year and this is the script, because if I don’t do it now, then It’s not gonna happen basically. So yeah, I think just do, I think do is the biggest, the biggest advice I can give.

INDIGO: That’s amazing. Yeah, I definitely need to start making films. I graduated in June and I do work in the film exhibition sector, but I do want to start making films, so that’s a great advice, cuz I do need to just grab a camera, you know, record stuff. 

JACK: It’s tricky when you’re busy, when you’re working full-time. It’s, you know, just like, you need to think about yourself as well. 

INDIGO: Exactly. And that’s what I’ve been trying to do. But it’s, it’s just hard as freelancers as well to, you know, find enough jobs to make the money to pay rent. And also you always have to keep applying for new stuff. It’s, yeah, it’s a busy time. Yeah. But hopefully I’ll make some films soon and, yeah. I was just wondering if there’s any other queer, and it could be not queer as well, forms of media that you’ve seen recently that you’d recommend to our audience?

JACK: I know, I was trying to think of something queer and I was like, ah, I don’t think I’ve, I don’t feel like I’ve, I’ve recently listened to anything or watched anything queer. But I was gonna recommend Scriptnotes because it is about filmmaking and script writing. It’s a podcast. Another podcast. Oh no, I’m taking you away from your podcast.

INDIGO: We love podcasts here.

JACK: I think it’s, I mean it’s with Craig Mazin from Chernobyl and John August who did Big Fish and stuff. And they talk about the industry, they talk about screenwriting obviously and they’re just amazing. So I always recommend everyone listening to that cause it’s, it’s really good. 

INDIGO: I’m adding it to my list. 

LEO: I’m literally doing exactly the same thing right now, opened up Spotify frantically just to like type it in.

JACK: Yes. Yeah, there’s years of back catalogue as well, so you can, you know, you can just go to an, an island and just sit there for years and listen to it 

LEO: Yes. What book will you take with you to a deserted island? No, I’m actually taking podcasts. 

JACK: Yeah, you’re taking the Scriptnotes. So you don’t need a book. An empty notebook, that’s what you need. An empty notebook and you can start writing. 

LEO: We’re gonna close off now, so, just to like, finalize, if you could remind us where people can find you in your work online, that’d be quite nice. 

JACK: Yeah, I, well, I’ve got a personal website that’s, just my name, jackgoessens.com. But also Indigo has. Programmed my shorts so, everyone can come to the SQIFF miniseries. You can, you can do the pitch. 

INDIGO: I think this episode will come out after the mini series. 

JACK: Oh man. They’re gonna miss it then.

INDIGO: I know. I’ll be posting on our social medias and everything about the miniseries, which is gonna be incredible and I’m so excited. But yeah, thank you so much for everything, for talking to us, for letting us watch your films. And also on behalf of SQIFF, like thank you so much for showing, letting us show your films. I think it’s incredible to show stories made by trans people which we don’t have enough. I mean, as square we try our best to do it, but I feel like in the mainstream film sector, exhibition sector, we don’t have enough and, yeah. I’m very looking forward to see where you move with your career and watch your future films, cuz yeah, I’ve loved the ones that you’ve made so far, so. 

JACK: Oh, you’re so nice. You’re gonna make me blush.

[upbeat drum based song]

LEO: I loved this conversation with Jack. We just want to thank them so much for joining us today. It has been a massive pleasure. 

INDIGO: Make sure to follow Jack on social media. He’s currently working as a writer and director on his first feature, project Boyfriend, which we’re so excited about. 

LEO: Thank you so much for listening to this amazing episode, and stay tuned for following episode next month.

[upbeat drum based song fades]