[upbeat drum based song]

LEO: Hello everyone and welcome to Changing the Frame. We’re your hosts. My name is Leo Torre, and I use he and they pronouns.

INDIGO: My name is Indigo Korres and I use she and her pronouns. We’re a podcast that discusses trans and non-binary experiences in the film industries. Every episode will count with the appearance of a trans and/or non-binary multimedia artist in the film industries to talk about their work. We are really excited to share these amazing talks and discussions with you all. 

LEO: In today’s episode, we have a very lovely and special guest, who is a classically trained multi instrumentalist, an avantgarde conceptual artist based in Glasgow. Callie Rose Petal, also known as Lonely Carp, uses the many facets of her creative practice to attempt to crystallise the infinite complexity of a lived trans experience forging light from inside darkness.

INDIGO: Content warnings for this episode are eating disorders, death and gender dysphoria. 

[upbeat drum based song]

LEO: This is changing the frame.

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INDIGO: Hello, Callie. 

CALLIE: Hi. 

INDIGO: Thank you so much for joining us today. I was just wondering if we could start by you telling us a little bit about yourself and your background. 

CALLIE: Sure, sure. My name’s Callie Rose Petal. I make art as Lonely Carp. I am a multi-instrumentalist, noise artist and just performance artist really, based in Glasgow currently. I make really, really abrasive stuff, and I think abrasion really is kind of my buzzword with all of my practice, whether it’s, you know, aesthetic abrasion, like actual abrasion that hurts the ears or eyes or emotional. And I think I’ve always had a bit of a, a bias towards, towards, the challenging. That’s probably why I chose double bass as my first instrument at four years old. Cause I just, you know, I gotta go for the one that’s the hardest to reach. And I, I was sat on a bar stool in the orchestra to be able to reach the top of the, the neck of the instrument. But I think that pretty much set the, set the stage for the rest of my practice for the rest of my life. I just love a limitation. I think limitation to the artist brings freedom to the art. So yeah, I guess that’s pretty much me. 

LEO: That’s so exciting. In What It Means To Be, you point out that you’ve played piano for more than 20 years and we also know that you play many other instruments, obviously, like the double bass, accordion, chello, ukelele, Celtic harp and bass guitar. What made you pursue music and what roadblocks did you face when you were starting out? 

CALLIE: Oh, that’s a great question. I think for me, music has always been the, the most important thing in my life, and sounds in general. I mean, as an, as a neurodivergent person, sounds have always affected me in a very, very strong way out of all of the, out of all of the senses. And whether that be by overwhelming me or calming me. I… Strangely, it it… to my other ni neuro divergent friends. I, I seem to experience the opposite modality where I am calmed by a, a big wall of noise. Like sometimes I need to be oversaturated with noise because it creates this strange kind of concentration gradient, equilibrium in my brain and the outside. So, because my, the inside of my brain is so loud all the time, it’s kinda like it equals out. So, yeah, sound is so powerful to me. It’s literal magic. I experience it in a very, very strong way. And so I suppose naturally from that, the, the, the practice of creating sounds seemed to, to flow. So, yeah. As I said, double bass was my first instrument, that was the physical size of it was a bit of a roadblock. I think for the longest time I had struggles with, with singing? Not, not in terms of ability, just in terms of my own perception of myself, especially as, as my first puberty began. That was really, really difficult because that was, you know, that coincided with the discovery of, of my own transness and the acceptance of my own transness and such a strange… Strange, really is not sufficient enough of a word, but, but, it’s a very significant thing to go through as a, as a trans feminine person to, to be subjected to testosterone. And I do mean subjected to it. It really did feel like an unfair curse that was being placed upon me. As, as you know, my vocal tract kind of lengthened and I, I’m sure you both know as you, as you are exposed to testosterone, it’s irreversible. So a body exposed to a vocal chord, a set of vocal chords exposed to testosterone can never naturally return to a, a higher frequency state. So with trans men testosterone is enough to, to change the voice. But with trans women, there’s actual training that’s needed to bring the, the, the voice to a perceptively feminine range. Obviously feminine is such a subjective, subjective term, but in terms of like greater society and, and being gendered in a, on a subconscious level. So that was a real roadblock, obviously, coming to terms with that. And I think that is what prevented me for the longest time, marrying together my poetry, my lyrics and my musical compositions. So I, for the longest time, I just thought, I’m incapable, I’m incapable of, of bringing the two together. And yes, I can do poetry and yes, I can play the piano. Which was my second instrument by the way. But I, I always refer to the, to the piano as my husband and the double bass as, as my boyfriend. But, I, yeah… The piano is, is a real, is the real love of my life. I think that has a lot to do with the, the fact that it contains every scale, contains well most scales of, of the instruments, of the orchestra. And that vastness and entire universe of tones that can be created with just two hands. So, I dunno where I was going with this. Thanks so much, ADHD. I’ve literally just like gone off on a tangent. 

INDIGO: It’s, it’s so good to hear all that and also like I completely understand the voice thing, as I am trans fem as well. And yeah. But coming back to your music practice, would you be able to tell us a bit more about your recent releases? So including the physical release of Katabasis: An Underworld Opera.. How do you define your own music style and what is your creative practice process like? 

CALLIE: Okay. Yeah. So Katabasis… So it’s pronounced Katabasis and I honestly, it’s, it’s an ancient Greek word and I think I probably just chose it just to be able to say, actually it’s pronounced like this. No, obviously, obviously joking, but, no, it’s… Katabasis was like the pivotal work of my life so far, for sure. It was, it was funded by the Do It Differently Fund awarded by Help Musicians UK. And yeah, it’s always been a goal of mine to, to physically release something and I knew from from the start it had to be vinyl. Like I just have such a strong connection to vinyl from going through, through records as a kid and stuff. And it’s on cassette as well. But my recent releases… I just released something… wait, what day is it today? Two days ago actually called FAGOCYTE: my plate is empty i ate everything let me go. Which it definitely marks the, the, the beginning of the acceptance of, of my deranged nature. So I think with Katabasis I had an idea that I really wanted it to be this Lingua Ignota inspired, ubo inspired noise that had a lot of esoteric and hematic-gnostic kind of references in it. It’s curated as a descent to the, to the underworld. It’s a concept album that expresses my experience of survival sex, which is, as I’m sure you both know, a really shockingly common experience for trans people, trans women especially. And yeah, so making that was, I would say making the album itself was, was almost as traumatic as the events that inspired it. I really, I really went into it thinking this is gonna be such a catharsis, and it was. But in the same way that, you know, pouring iodine on a, on a wound hurts like hell. That making the album also hurt like hell. It was very interesting that it, I made it in a basement studio, entirely in a basement studio over the course of the year as well, so literally under the ground. The, the, in the creation of the album, none of the sounds saw a single ray of light, which it felt important. And this release, the FAGOCYTE is… It retains that same quality of darkness. But I, I think with Katabasis, with it being grant funded, I sort of had this, kind of like subconscious purist, classically trained brain coming in where I was like, okay, the mastering and the mixing needs to be so, so clean and crisp, even if it is, even if I do want it to be a noise album, it needs to be so clean and crisp because I’m doing it for a founding body. And I’m representing trans people, like being given a grant, like one of the only trans people to have been given a grant by Help Musicians so far. And so really, you know, it felt, even subconsciously, it felt like a lot of of pressure to do so in, in a, in a purist kind of classist kind of way. Which, you know, again, as I said before, a limitation is I always welcome a limitation, even if it is subconsciously imposed. But yes, I’m really pleased with FAGOCYTE because it’s, it’s a lot more, I dunno if, if you folks know about ccl, uh, ccl Yugen, this like power, power electronics, death industrial artist with just such poorly, poorly mastered, poorly, poorly mixed, just like, like really just grit, grit and filth. And that’s, that’s kind of what FAGOCYTE is. It is grit and filth. It’s a little, a little EP made over the course of the last maybe six or seven months, which uses the semantic field of digestion to express what it’s felt like for me to process the loss of my friend and yeah, I, I also, I’ve, I’ve struggled all my life with, with eating. Just, just eating is, is a real, it’s a real thing. And I think so many of my songs and so many of my works focus on the process of digestion even without realizing it, because it, for me, it’s not so much of a, of an anorexic situation it’s more like an aed, like autism related thing where I literally hate the sensation of passing things through my body. I find it like completely disgusting. So that like equate, that was quite a natural kind of comparison to draw quite a natural metaphor, metaphorical connection to create the pain of the pain and yet necessity of passing nutrients through the body and, and breaking them down, and then passing out the waste. That is grief and that is loss. So yeah, taking all of the, taking all of the beauty and light that this, that this beautiful, beautiful person brought into the world and into its smallest constituent parts that I can then carry, carry with me into, into my day-to-day life. But in the process, you know, digestion is noisy. The stomach rumbles, the stomach rumbles a lot. And especially when you have.

LEO: And it’s too loud sometimes.

CALLIE: Too loud. I mean, that’s one of my biggest triggers is people hearing my bodily functions. And if I could just be a silicon like being that is just like inert, completely inert, that would be wonderful. Thank you so so much. But yeah, I, that, that process and, and like the, the, the, the hatred and resistance of that very natural process, I think lots of people can relate to that when it comes to grief, not, maybe not so much with digestion, but for me it’s pretty much the same, the same kind of thing. So that, that came out on Band Camp Friday and I think it’s coming out on, on Spotify at some point soon. Yeah, I think that’s pretty much it with my latest releases. I mean, I did a couple, three more actually before that, between Katabasis in this one, but the instrumental kind of orchestral noise I like to call it. So I use a lot of vsts, orchestral vsts and layer that on top of chains like whacking against violins. And I just love taking the, the, the, the purism of, of classical music and the elitism of classical music and the privilege that is contained within classical music, white male privilege that is contained within classical music just in a, like in inherently contained within it and warping that into something inherently trans-feminine and abrasive and challenging. 

INDIGO: That sounds amazing. 

LEO: Oh, yeah, I’m enjoying listening to you a lot cause obviously in preparation for recording I listened to Katabasis as well and I am a big Greek mythology nerd and obviously the title I recognized immediately.

CALLIE: Yay! 

LEO: Yeah, I, I enjoyed it so much. I think you make really cool stuff and it really calls to me as well, again, back in how you were discussing about sometimes things just being too loud in your brain and needing extra sound and noise on top of that. I loved it. I loved it very much and I’m very excited to see and listen to the one you released a couple days ago cause I haven’t listened to that yet. So very, very excited. 

CALLIE: Thank you so much. That’s so nice. 

LEO: Yeah. Yeah. We are moving now onto the film. So. We found out that you’re a co-founder of Spit It Out, which is an award-winning charity dedicated to opening conversations around consent, mental health, and healing through creativity. And Spit It Out co-director Lea Luiz De Oliveira directed What It Means To Be, which is the film that you’re starring, basically. So would you tell us how you two met and why you decided to make the film together and what the creative process was like? 

CALLIE: Absolutely. I think as with everything… Sorry, I’m still recovering from the beautiful words that you just said about my music… So Lea and I, as with most things in my life of any worth, they fall, they fall in completely against my will. Almost they, they come, they just, they fall in, they blow in like a leaf on the wind. And I’m so grateful to have met Lea. And it was through Bee, actually Bee is the subject of Lea’s first, not first documentary, but, but first fully commissioned documentary, Spit It Out. And that’s where the name of the charity came from. So Lea is the director of the charity as well as an actual director. And so it was strangely, I, I was just like in Paradise Palms, like in Edinburgh of an evening. And I, I got served by Bee and I think I was talking to her about her earrings or like about like, she like said something about getting a bad, a bad TripAdvisor review and I was like, oh my God. Like people are such dicks to anyone working in hospitality. And then we just got to talking about music and then started to, to jam together and stuff. And actually I composed the chords and performed the piano for Ice // Fall on Bee’s record From Girl To Men. And from that I met Lea when Spit It Out was screened. Gosh, this is really taking me on a lovely trip down memory lane. Yeah. So Spit It Out was, was screened in… Do you ever have, do you have like, either of you have like a place where like it seemed literal magic, like the place itself seemed magic because it held so much power and so some of the most pivotal things in your life happened in that one spot? In that room, in Lea’s old bedroom on Nicholson Street, just a gorgeous, gorgeous, huge space with a big sheet for a projector and we, we, we saw Spit It Out. Well, I, I saw the premiere of, of Spit It Out and then I, you know, as you’ve, you’ve already seen in, in this 10 minute call how emotional I am. I was like, oh, this is so intense. And Lea spoke to me at length at the end of it we were just smoking cigarette after cigarette at the kitchen table crying together. And then from there she came to one of my shows at the Wee Red Bar, which was just like, just a queer cabaret show. I used to do like Queer Cabaret sets, which is, it’s, it’s kind of a world away from, from my style now, but very, very camp kind of like tragedy, comedy music. And Lea’s Cinematographer turned around to, was also in the audience, turned around to her and said, your next film needs to be about Callie. And Lea turned around to her and said, I know. And then, we met after that. She just came around to my flat and was like, look, Callie, like, feel free to say no. I know. Like, I’m, I’m cis like, I don’t, I I could never, ever understand your experience, but I do feel that already we have such a connection and that if anyone was gonna make a film about you, then it cannot, firstly, it cannot be a male, it cannot be a man. Because too many documentaries are just absolutely laden with the male gaze. And yeah, I completely agreed. And I said, of course, I would love to work with you. Originally, I thought it was just gonna be like a fricking seven minute YouTube video or something, but it ended up being a documentary. And I mean, at first we thought it was gonna, we were like, yeah, okay. It’ll be like a year project. It’ll be really cute. We’ll have a cute year in close quarters with each other. And then lockdown happened and it ended up being three years or some shit like it was really ridiculous in terms of the, the, the, the workflow. But obviously in terms of the narrative of the film, quite powerful to increase the length of, of the duration of the, of the story. The process itself was, yeah, it, it was… Working with… Oh God, working with Lea is, is, is a dream, like an actual dream. Like we laugh so much and it is just like so much joy. And, you know, I’ll go from talking about like, the darkest time of my life to like suddenly wake performing and rolling on the floor. So yeah, there was lots of aftercare with Lea, like even just involuntarily just providing aftercare just by being there. Just a beautiful, beautiful woman, like gorgeous, gorgeous human being. And I couldn’t, I couldn’t trust anyone else as much to tell any of my stories. So yeah, it was, it was interesting. Obviously I’ve never, I’ve done interviews and everything, but I’ve never been the subject of, of something like that before, and it was… I, I feel very lucky. I feel very, very lucky that it was Lea, to be honest with you. Yeah.

INDIGO: That sounds really lovely. You explain stories so well, like…

LEO: Yeah. 

INDIGO: It’s just so good to hear you. And I was gonna say that I’ve researched a bit about Lea and I know she’s Brazilian like me, so please introduce me to her. 

CALLIE: I will honey, I will.

INDIGO: And yeah, it sounds like you had a, a beautiful time and I think going through that process of being the subject of a film is so good to have that trust with the director that you know, there’s shooting the whole film and yeah. So this comes up to my next question, which is you’re the main character and sole subject of What It Means To Be and the film spans for three years, like you said, following both the beginning of your medical transition as well as the shift in your academic career, how did it feel to be the center of the documentary?

CALLIE: Oh yeah. Well, yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned that about the medical transition because when we first set out on that first like conversation, during that first conversation where we were sat on the sofa together, the, the thing, the one thing that Lea kept stressing was that she does not want it to be a film about a transition, which I think is just, that was what made me want to work with her so much because I, I, I coined this term cis voyeurism and I don’t know if it if other people have used it or not, but there is some, there is something very real that I call cis voyeurism where a cisgender person see will, may pretend to be very, very interested in a trans person’s life when actually all they really care about is the change, the before and after, and the transition itself rather than the human being underneath all of that. So, I think Lea wanting from the get go to just to not focus on the transition, but to focus on my science and my art. I think that was what made me want to work with her. But then because of lockdown, I started estrogen. So it, it’s, yeah, I was, I’d been on… But when we first had that conversation, I’d been on the waiting list for four years. The GIC waiting which is the gender identity clinic waiting list. And it was eventually five years, I think. Yeah, five years where I finally got my first appointment. Like obviously no comment there. But, but, Because of that, I started estrogen. And at the very, very start, I, I, I struggle with a lot of, a lot of physical health problems. And my doctor thought that it, I may have lupus or some kind of autoimmune condition. And so they were worried that I wouldn’t be able to, to even go on HRT. So we were like, okay, well there’s not gonna even, even be any, like any, any physical change. There’s not gonna be any discussion of, of estrogen or hormones at all in the film. And that’s good. That’s actually a really, really good, good thing. And actually quite subversive when it comes to, to trans media. But then lo and behold, I became a cliche. But yeah, it was… Yeah, every, everything happens for a reason. I, I truly believe that. But you know, I’m a kooky witch and yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m grateful that it did happen, because it meant that we had, within the film, we had that discussion at the start of being like, you don’t need hormones. You know, you know, you don’t need to meditate, transition to be trans. You don’t even need dysphoria to be trans. And all of these points are like, so the, the main thing that I want cis people and trans people to take away from anything that I do really, just this like gatekeeping of, of, of human beings of, of any kind is, is just fucking ridiculous. So, but it was good that we did have both, both sides. And I think just being able to show the joy of, of, of both, you know, the joy of, of the joy of, of, of empowering yourself in knowing that you may not take hormones and the joy of empowering yourself in knowing that you will.

LEO: So good. I, I enjoy that bit in the film a lot when you were discussing like, you don’t need to transition to be trans and all the little bits that come with it. Like, you don’t need hormones, you don’t need surgeries, you don’t need to present a certain way. It was, it was very nice. It was like very reassuring cuz obviously transitioning is a lifetime thing, and things shift so much in life in general, so…

CALLIE: Absolutely.

LEO: Yeah. There’s no rush in any way, but…

CALLIE: We’re all transitioning, honey.

LEO: Yeah, exactly. There is no rush, but sometimes the rush needs to happen and yeah, It’s… Yeah…

CALLIE: Yes, absolutely. 

LEO: Just agree, agree, big agree with you. So aside from being the documentary subject, you also composed the score for it and I found that the soundtrack is sweet and soft in some moments, but jarring and unsettling in others, depending on like, kind of what you’re experiencing in the film and what experiences you’re describing. I, I, I love looking into scores and just pairing, yeah, just pairing like the feeling of what’s happening on the screen with the music it’s very important. So yeah. We would like to know how the score composing process was and why you chose the style that you chose, and mainly like how did it feel to compose a score about a chunk of your life?

CALLIE: Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, Leo. I, I mean, I feel entirely the same. I think just from the very, very beginning of my life of, of my memory score has always been what I’m working towards and, you know, my, my personal practice in terms of, of just, just pure music. I do think that, that no matter what, it always retains a quality of score to it, a visual element in that it’s trying to depict a visual image, if that makes any sense in within the aesthetic. And artists like Colin Stetson. Oof. Just like true, true, true heroes. And it’s always been my dream to be a score composer. And you know, if any anyone listening to this wants me to compose score for them, like please hit me up because that is is my dream. It’s my actual dream. And yeah, just being able to marry together, the visual with the, with the, the sonic is, is just pure magic. I’ve used the word magic so many times during this conversation, but you know, there’s just magic everywhere, I guess. Yeah, I, it was, but like knowing all of that, for my first ever score project to be a film about my life was a bit intense, I gotta say. I… There was, you know, peaks and troughs, honey, peaks and troughs. I, there was times when I was like, I am, I feel so privileged and so blessed to be able to do, do this and know that anything that I make now is not going to be misconstrued because it’s literally about me. And like, I can’t really make any mistakes because as long as I flow and stay present, then I know that I’m composing what needs to be composed and I’m not being biased by my own, like, unconscious, like elements playing a part. Also the exact opposite is true. And I, I went into deep, deep pits of depression, to be honest with you. Trying to, trying to watch the film especially recently, like I, cuz again, like it was three years, and as we were going into post, I was finishing off the score and it was, you know, some of the scenes were two and a half years prior, and I genuinely, I looked so different, I sounded so different. I had, there’s this one scene where I have so much facial hair and I literally, I just, just, I just want to scratch my eyes out every single time I see it. But also, I mean, I’ve, I spoke to Lea about this so much and she said to me so many times, like, Callie, we’ll take it out. We’ll take it out. We’ll take it out. And I was like, I’m just like so conflicted about it because I feel like so deeply in my heart that it needs to be in there and, or rather, I know so deeply in my heart that it needs to be in there. And yet also just dysphoria. Dysphoria is a bitch. So yeah, no, having, holding those two things, very two of swords energy, just like, what, what, what, what is the best for me? What is the safest for me? And what is the best for everyone else? And I think, like, I know going off on a tangent here, but really that’s been like the main struggle in my life is to, is to set enough boundaries to give love to the self. At the same, with the same veracity as I give love to others. And I think that, I mean, that is the human struggle in general, but I think more than anything, it’s the trans struggle to emit so much light, to emit so much light from the soul that the body is irrelevant. And I think being able to turn that light inward is, is really our mission. Right. 

INDIGO: Yeah, I can imagine It’s a very emotional process to look back through all that footage. 

CALLIE: Yeah. 

INDIGO: Especially to like compose for it. What was the process like of composing the music? Like did you compose some pieces during the process of filming or was it all post-production?

LEO: Yeah, so, great question. Some of the scenes, after doing some of the interviews, for example, this is with all of my compositions, they’re completely against my will. Like, they, I cannot do anything but go to the piano and do it. It feels like I’m being driven by a motor. Like I can’t, I, I can’t not do it. So, some of the pieces were done literally like after, after the interview, after Lea had left, left my room. I was like, get out. I got, I got, gotta write this. And others, a lot of the bridging textures between scenes was done in bridging moments of my life, in liminal moments of my life. So it was very strangely and, and sporadically done. But I guess that’s not strange for me at all. I am, as you’ve realised already, the one of the most chaotic people ever. And I, I think sometimes I beat myself up about that. And I’m like, I can never do things in a linear fashion. Never get things done until just before a deadline and stuff. But for me, life works tangentially. Life works in a fractal pattern. You know, I’ll go away and do this thing and then that connects to this thing from two years ago that needed doing, and then that helps me do this thing in six months, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, the score was very done, very non, in a very nonlinear fashion, but also very much so things were, things were composed during times of mood that matched the scene, if that makes any sense. 

INDIGO: Yeah.

CALLIE: Yeah. The pi, the, the points of, of soft fragility and quiet quietude most likely written during a, a depression. And there were times when it did feel quite sisyphean, I was pushing a boulder like up, up the hill with this score. And even just like changing the smallest part, like you just go, like zooming into a two second bit of footage and, and, looking so closely at the light hitting my face and, and just being so focused on things that, as trans people, we try so hard not to focus on, but you know what a catharsis, right? Like exposure therapy, if there ever was like truly exposure therapy like in two ways really. Yeah. 

INDIGO: I know we’ve seen this throughout the film, but how has your creative practice changed over the years and in what ways has your life influenced it? I know we’ve seen three years of your life in the film, but in general, like in as your life in a whole and playing piano for 20 years, like how has your creative practice changed in that time?

CALLIE: Well, I would say I started out being very interested in the romantic composers cuz as I said, I’m classically trained. So Chopin was, was my guy. And I think really it’s kind of got more, if I could say just anything, it’s that it’s just got more and more and more abrasive. So Chopin, Chopin has an abrasion and emotional abrasion of course, like Chopin has deep, deep, deep sadness and romanticism to his work. But that string of, of romantic, well, that string of romanticism has remained throughout my work. It’s become muddied with more and more grit and dirt. And I think that really has to do with, with me coming to terms with my own grit and my own dirt and leaning and, and, and surrendering into my imperfections, being empowered by my own limitations and not trying to be this perfect grade A. Cuz I was such an overachiever in school in terms of like forced overachiever and nothing came naturally to me, but I forced myself to be a grade A student because if I could, if I, I was grasping at a power that was never afforded to me. Basically, that’s why I went for a career in STEM originally. Just do all the hardest subjects, like focus as much as possible on schoolwork, and then you don’t have to think about bullying, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my parents and the acceptance of my, my dad and, and stuff like that, like all of that stuff, I think as a child I was like, well, if I can get an A star. If I can get 11 A stars, then you know, I’ve got their acceptance and then I can finally be a girl. So, yeah, with the music, I would say as I’ve, as I’ve let go of those, of those kind of erroneous goals placed upon myself, a, around being a type A, like overachiever, as I’ve let go of that more and more and allowed myself to dwell in my mess and my work has become more messy. And I welcome that and I love that. I’m, I’m so grateful for my mess now as I look around at the bo… many, many boxes that I still have to unpack in my house. Yeah. And KATABASIS, like I said to you before, I think it retained some of those elements of like trying to be pristine, especially in the mix, but that, yeah, I think that that kind of is like a callback to, to the child’s self that was desperately trying to come out during that period of, of doing survival sex. So, yeah. I, I used to do, as you said, during the film, it does kind of show an arc, if you will, of, of like aesthetic change, like starting with a, a fricking ukulele track about Tinky Winky. Oh my God. Okay, so speaking of Tinky Winky, this is…

LEO: Aw.

CALLIE: …a little noise toy that my partner made for me and it’s got like an APC circuit inside of it. And unfortunately the batteries ran out, but it’s so adorable. And yeah, so in the start, in the start of the, the film, I think it’s at the start of the film, I can’t really remember…

LEO: Yeah, kinda.

CALLIE: But I’m singing a song about winky on a ukulele. Yeah. So at the beginning of the film, I’m singing like a, a queer cabaret like song, and as it progresses, it goes to, to the end, with it finishes with KATABASIS. And I think when at the beginning of my transition, or at least when I was identified as non-binary, which was at the beginning of the film, which is a part of myself, that I never want to es issue, by the way, I’m very like, definitely not in terms of success or ability, but I’m very like ARCA in that way, in terms of like gender expression, I will never issue my non-binary aspect as much as I am a woman. I’m also non-binary. And identities are 100% stackable because I mean, they’re all bullshit anyway, but, like, you know, they’re meaningful as much meaning as you want to give them. And yeah, the, the kind of vastness within which is so terrifying to a lot of people, which is why we are so under threat because people are terrified by our inner power. That vastness I never wanna let go of. But anyway, that’s beside the point. Yes, the, the trajectory of my work has kind of gone in a strange way. It’s gone from more cutesy and like innocent in its vulnerability to terrifyingly loud in its vulnerability and it’s kind of a, a, a, a dual, there’s a dualism there where a yin yang situation where the quietude and funniness were there, and now it’s loud and not funny at all, you know? So, yeah, I, I, I, I have respect for that, for that like, phase of my music, of the queer cabaret phase, but also to be absolutely honest with you, it just makes me cringe now. I, so I took down The Shape Of Celery and Screaming To The Void. And Inpatient Inpatient, which was an archival album that had like 108, 108, like bedroom lofi, kind of like Kimia Dawson, Daniel Johnson esque ukulele and piano stuff. It’s on Bandcamp still, but I just can’t have it in my discography on Spotify anymore. Like, it just, it’s feels so inauthentic because it’s not who I am anymore. And so many of my friends and collaborators, have said, you’ve got to just respect everything you’ve ever done and respect the, each phase, each stage that you’ve gone through. But there’s something about, especially in this day and age as an artist, a Spotify profile is a business card, and it just, it just doesn’t feel real to me anymore. The, the whole ukulele stuff, it’s… have either of you seen that meme? That’s like trans mascs making music with a ukulele. It’s like ones with the ukulele. It’s like, I wish I was a bug. The world would be more mine. And then it’s like trans femmes making music. I am smoking weed. The loudest noise you’ve ever heard. 

LEO: Yes, yes.

INDIGO: Yes. 

CALLIE: So I feel like weirdly, I’ve gone from like the trans masc aspect of that meme to the trans femme aspect of that meme.

INDIGO: I love that.

LEO: Oh, I, it pains me to admit this, but I had a ukulele face as well. 

CALLIE: That’s totally okay. 

LEO: I know, I know. But I’ve had a ukulele since like 2015 or so, and I only just got rid of it. Like two months ago, which like, good riddance, and again, I, I align myself a lot with what you said about like, yeah, you can respect parts of your past and the past of your creative practice, but also like, I don’t want to have anything to do with that anymore. Like, that’s not me anymore. So yeah, the way you put it, I, I really, yeah, it really clicked on me, I think. 

CALLIE: Thank you. 

LEO: And also the stuff that you were saying about grit and dirt and noise and creative practices not being perfect. I think it aligns very nicely with our next point in conversation with, which is music and activism. And I feel like activism has to be ugly. Oftentimes. So, yeah. I wanted to ask you if you could elaborate a little bit more, because in, in the film you speak about your music being very tied to activism and yeah, I would just like to know how activism presents in your practice. 

CALLIE: Oh yeah, for sure. I think whether I want it to or not, everything I ever make is a piece of activism and unfortunately as trans people, our entire existence is politicised. So we have no choice but to be political in every single movement and breath that we, that we make. And besides that, you know, besides that like kind of current of inescapable politics that runs through a trans person’s creative practice, the intentional facet, I would say it is contained within the noise and, and the grit, like you say. In the film, I think, one of, one of my first ever live works was recorded: how much do I have to bleed before you call me a woman? And that was. One of the most important things I’ve ever done, just for me, really, I was basically naked, tied up on the top of Arthur’s seat in Edinburgh with all of the names of the trans people that had been murdered, recorded names of the trans people that had been known to be murdered that year on my bare skin, and with a gag in my mouth and being drenched in fake blood and screaming upward to the sky. So that, yeah, I mean like obviously that’s one of the things that people think about when they discuss activism is, is live art, right? Like a performance art? That’s performance art is, is, is inextricably linked to activism. But what was, what was special about that for me was its incorporation into not only the film, but into that release Screaming To The Void, which is taken down from Spotify, but on Bandcamp. And it’s, yeah, I was, I, I used the, the field recordings that we took from, from that in, in that release and sampled them. So I think in terms of like, like imbuing imbuing my work with activism, with intention that release Screaming To The Void was, was during lockdown. So that was when it, when it was a, on a lot more, more people’s minds, the statistics to do with the Trans Day Of Remembrance and stuff like that. People were, a lot were forced to be made aware of that a lot more because they were on social media more and that created kind of a fertile ground for, okay, let’s like really show, let’s, let’s really fucking show how many names there really actually are. And just feeling them like, like feeling the actual names on my skin and washing them off. And that, that scene in the film with the, like, showering, showering, the names off was probably our favourite scene in the film. Just the whole team’s favourite scene. I, in terms of like KATABASIS, I, that has a lot more to do with, obviously trans activism, that’s a given, but also to do with sex workers rights and just like, it’s just an anti TERF, anti SWERF situation. Really. Yeah, that, what I really struggled with, with, with KATABASIS was I, I didn’t, I was so cryptic and so metaphorical when I, when I first released it. I told the funding body what the inspiration behind it was because I really wanted them to know the importance of it. But then as it was released, I was just very cryptic of, you know, using Greek references and stuff like that to allegorically kind of get across what it’s about. But now I, I’ve realized that like, that, that that takes away so much of, of its power and its utility because, fuck, like I, I’m safe now. I am, I’m not homeless. Like I have a home and I have a chosen family and I have a safety that many, many, many trans people, many, many trans sex workers don’t have. And I guess when I was still doing sex work, I, I felt a sense of ownership over it. But now I do. It’s, it’s hard. It’s hard because I, I, I feel there is a guilt, there is a guilt of, of getting, not only of getting out of sex work, but also of my experience being negative. And obviously I’m not saying this fabrication in any way whatsoever because I know it’s an erroneous guilt. I know it’s a, it’s a completely not well-founded guilt, but it’s a guilt nonetheless, of the fact that my experience was genuinely so traumatic. Doing sex work when I have so many, if my, like my poly kink circles, all of my friendship group and everything, so many there, there are so much sex work representation in that, and that’s some of the best people I know and they have such a great time in their jobs and it’s real work. And I just, you know, I always just want to hammer that home whenever I talk about this album because as much as my experience was horrendous, that had nothing to do with the practice of sex work itself. It was the men and, the clients. And I guess I spoke to the interviewer for the Spit It Out Mag, Phlegm Magazine, which is the, the magazine that Spit It Out, bring out every month or bimonthly. I can’t remember. My partner and I, Barney and I spoke about our relative experience of, of sex work and I think I, I’m, I’m just always trying to stress that this album is, while it is a survivor anthem, it’s not, it really, the last thing I want is it for, is for it to demonize sex work and for, for sex work to be further attributed to pain. It’s, it’s just such a difficult position to occupy, to be able to like express my own, my own trauma to around sex work and also encourage and, and support and truly love my sex worker friends. And gosh, it’s just a really complex, a really, really complex kind of thing. So yeah, sex work is work. Let me just say that. And. I guess that’s pretty much what I have to say on that. 

LEO: Bless you. You’re an absolute delight and I feel like you have so much consideration for what your practice does for activism. So we spoke a little bit about you getting funding for KATABASIS, so our next question was in regarding regards to that and yeah, you mentioned that you were one of the few, if not only person to get this funding for making an album. So how accessible have you found getting funding for your trans projects and how did the funding relationship go for this project in particular?

CALLIE: Yeah, great question. So obviously disclosure is an entirely personal thing and so I’m not, I’m by no means certain or aware of any other transness of, of other awardees of the grand. So I can’t speak with absolute certainty on that. But from what I know, definitely one of the most open awardees of the grant, trans awardees of the grant. The process was gorg. It was gorgina, honestly, like I can’t, I can’t praise Help Musicians UK enough. Not only is it so, is such a, an accessible kind of application process. They’ve made it even more accessible now. Before it was very specific with the, with the grants that you applied for and they’d have like different deadlines for different things. Now they do it on a rolling basis and it’s five categories and you can just choose one of the categories that you need funding for and they’re always open. So they also take video applications and stuff like that. So similar to Creative Scotland, they do everything they can for neurodivergent and disabled people in general. And so yeah, just great. And also the people themselves. I, strangely enough, in another synchronicity, cuz oh my god, synchronicities follow me everywhere. Like I cannot leave my house without like the weirdest coincidences happening. Strangely enough, one of my oldest friends became my account manager person, like the the grant person, like go-to person. He emailed me like, hi, Callie blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I read his name at the end, Barnaby Deaf. And I was like, wait a minute, that’s a really unique name. That is a really, really unique name. And then I went over to Facebook and I was like, girl, is this you? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw your name. And I was like, oh my God. So that was really, really weird. But they’ve been so, so wonderful all along and they’re really great with like marketing releases and stuff like that. And also I wanted to change, so originally I wanted a lot of like tape loop work in KATABASIS. I wanted to do a lot of reel to reel stuff because I was like, ooh, the wheels are turning ooh cycles. Ooh, the circles of hell. Ooh, maybe I can make something out of this. Is this anything? Is this anything? And eventually I was like, that’s that, that maybe a little bit reductive, Callie. So, so, I had scrapped the tape loop idea and I bought an electric double base with that 400 quid instead. And then that electric double base became, a phallic symbol to use during live performances where I’d be whacking it with chains and floggers and, and paddles and stuff, and creating like walls of, of noise through the, through the electric base strings. So that, again, that happened for a reason and they were so, like, so great with that change, they were with any changes. They were so, they were like, yeah, you do what you need. We understand. We understood from the beginning we were giving you, we are giving you this support. We’re giving you this funding, not this work as it’s written in the proposal. So that’s something that’s like quite rare, I think, for a funding body to be so dynamic.

INDIGO: Yeah, it’s very interesting to hear that because I’ve had a completely different experience with funding bodies. I mean, I work for film festivals, so it’s definitely a completely different thing of like doing that and doing your own art. And getting funding for that. So it’s definitely different fundings, but that sounds amazing that they were very open for all those changes and updates. That’s incredible.

CALLIE: Yeah, it was great.

INDIGO: It’s so good. Yeah.

CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I have also heard from Lea that that film funding can be horrendous. So… 

INDIGO: It’s literally like 40 pages long, asking for 10 extra documents and other stuff. 

CALLIE: Oh my God. 

INDIGO: It’s too much. 

CALLIE: Literally. So I, I tried to do a creative, I applied for the open fund for, cause I’m also a developer. I’m software developer, that’s like my, my day job. And I tried to, I applied for the open fund to, to develop this web app that I’ve designed and oh my god. Yeah, just hundreds of pages of, of what seems like crap. Like, just like, why do you need all this? Yeah. 

INDIGO: Thank you so much for talking about all that. I was just gonna ask, what other creative practices are you interested in? So we’ve heard a lot about music, you talked a little bit about your software job. Are there other, other creative practices that you have? 

CALLIE: Yes. 

INDIGO: Any hobbies? 

CALLIE: So, I, I, I live work as I said, like live art. I did a piece called If Only Hands Could Speak, during the Spit Out Festival, the inaugural Spit Out Festival at LTD Ink, one of the venues of the festival, in which I staged the cutting out of my own tongue. And that was to tell the, tell the story of Philomela’s tapestry. So, in mythology there’s a character called Philomela or Philomila, who was raped by Thracian King and had her tongue out to prevent telling, to prevent her from telling anyone about it. And it was part of an exhibition that Lea, Sena and I did on surviving sexual trauma. So just like a super, it was a super light show. Like it was, it was so, so light and easy and breezy. But as I was transcribing literal rape testimonies of these people, these, these beautiful survivors who had sent in their testimonies to the charity. I, it was like, it was literally unpeeling, like layers of my own trauma that I didn’t even remember that I’d suppressed. And I was just like, that was mere minutes before I went into the white space to do the performance. And that was, probably the most intense performance I’ve ever done in my entire life. And, you know, I’m literally a noise artist and I scream like my vocals are screaming. Like I, most of this was silent. And so I, I had a, a fake tongue, one of those stretchy ones, and my mouth was full of, of fake blood. And I cut out this tongue with a pair of giant scissors onto a white sheet. And then again, basically naked, just body painted like this strange abstract image in the blood carrying, was carrying this, this blood stained blanket around the room with me around everyone, like uncomfortably close to people’s faces. And then in, in, there was a chest in the middle of the room, an old wooden chest. I eventually came to the chest swaddled, the swaddled, the blanket, like a, like it was a baby, and then reached my mouth to the sky and screamed again, and then put the blanket into the, into the chest. As I was doing this, my, my latest release at the time, Architect Of My Abuse was playing. So again, this is showing how my, my musical practice and my live work are always, always linked. I always have some element of one and the other together, whether that’s sampling the live work in the music or using the music as backing for the live work. So, that was really special. And again, that was organised by Lea because yeah, all the Spit It Out girls pulled together that festival. That was really, really special and that was my first like gallery, gallery show. But I also paint, I love oil painting. I love doing scratchy bio ink work and writing obviously poetry. Words were probably my first, my first art form. I think, the most people’s first art form, actually. No, but they, they, they were, yeah, for me, words were really, really special from a very young age. And yeah. I, I, I just, I, I just love creativity. I just love making things. I think, I feel like if you’re not making something, what is the actual point? And that doesn’t have to be in the canonical, like pen to paper, like hand on instrument way. Anything is, can be creation. Even destruction can be creation. And I think that my latest work is trying to explore that, how destruction can be creation. But there’s creation everywhere. And I think the moment that you stop creating, and that’s something that, that Adrian taught all of us. Adrian is my late friend. Just to always be in the process of divine creation and conversing, conversing with presence, conversing with this moment, being in this body, being in this trans body, being in any body, but being in this trans body is talking to God. And I, I think that is what Adrian left me with, that we are ever in a process of creation. And the most powerful, powerful alchemical process that a human being can go through is a transition. And I feel that we are the modern day alchemists. And I don’t care if this sounds narcissistic or egotistical or self-absorbed, this, trans people, we are alchemists. We are the modern day alchemists. And those who truly know, know what alchemy is. Alchemy is not turning base metals into gold. That is a metaphor, that’s a spiritual metaphor for turning the mercuriality of emotionality into pure presence. Into gold, into solid gold. And the grief that I felt, this digestion of grief that I felt. The pain of that, the noise of that, the grip and filth and dirt of that is all slowly with my loving, compassionate attention that is all slowly turning into gold, into the gold of presence. And that’s it. That’s all we can want, really. That’s it. That’s it. Right? 

LEO: Callie, you speak so beautifully. We do need to go for a coffee. It’s, I think it’s imperative…

CALLIE: Agreed.

LEO: …that we hang out. Big style. What advice would you share for trans creators that are just getting started now?

CALLIE: Okay. Firstly, I love you.

LEO: I love you too. 

CALLIE: I fucking love you. If it doesn’t feel like anyone else does, I do. You gotta keep going. You gotta keep going and going and going. Don’t ever delete shit. I spent like five years of my life deleting shit as soon as I made it, because I hated myself so much that I could never listen to my own work. Don’t ever delete anything. Make a fucking private folder on a Google Drive. Make a private folder on your hard drive and don’t touch it for a year. Put it in a drawer. If you’re a writer, put it in a drawer in a filing cabinet with a lock and a, a key and a timed lock box or some shit like that. Don’t let yourself touch it. Don’t delete anything because you never know what it’s gonna become. Don’t literally don’t listen to anyone but you. Absorb as much work as possible. Absorb even the shit you hate. Absorb everything. If you’re going to write, if you’re gonna write for an hour, read for an hour. Just be, make sure that anything that you’re doing, is not being created with a future goal in mind, and it’s not being created with a past bias in mind. Try and it’s, this is not just for creative practice, this is for human existence. But try as hard as you can because this is the point of life, to slice your, your perception into the smallest now that you can. Just narrow it, keep narrowing it, and if you can need the breath to do that, to anchor you, then do so. Always back to the breath. Try not to allow your perception of yourself and the perception of others negatively impact your work. And if it does, let that be a thing as well. Let that be its own thing. Everything is okay. Everything is valid. Any means necessary that you can, any, anything you can get your hands on to make sounds or, or write words or, or take pictures, paint pictures, anything is cool. And in, in fact, outsider art is much more powerful than any kind of classically trained art, in my opinion. And that’s pretty much it. I love you. 

INDIGO: That’s amazing. That’s good advice. And we’re just about to wrap up.

CALLIE: Sure.

INDIGO: What other queer or not forms of media, and that could be like films, books, podcasts, whatever, would you recommend to our audience?

CALLIE: Oh God. Okay. I don’t care what anyone says, it’s the greatest album of all time: Caligula, by Lingua Ignota. Just listen to it. That, that’s all I can say. That if, if ever there is an album of survivor anthems, that’s it. Just. Really protect yourself though, especially if you’re a survivor of domestic abuse. In terms of other forms, books: Paul Takes The Form Of A Mortal Girl. Like…

LEO: So good.

CALLIE: Right?

LEO: So good. Yes.

CALLIE: Yeah, just that is exquisite for any queer, queer or non-queer person. Also, the audiobook is narrated by a fantastic non-binary creative that I can’t remember the name of right now, but it means that you get the whole package, you know, you get the, the trans writer, the non-binary speaker. You get everything. It’s, it’s all in one hand, it’s gorg. And it’s just got that gorgeous like AFAB but T, like T trickled like, like timbre to it, which is just like, ooh, one of my favorite voices. Just like, just like Adrian’s voice was just absolutely gorgeous. And art, I mean, this is like throwback, but like Bacon. Can’t get enough of Francis Bacon. And I’m not really, to be honest. I know I’m like literally being interviewed for a podcast right now, but I’m not really good at podcasts. Like my partner is the one that does podcasts, and I just kind of like lie there in bed and listen to whatever they’re listening to as they go, go to sleep. But, I do listen to, like, if I do listen to a podcast, it’ll be like something hematic, to do with tarot or, or palmistry or something. And gosh, I’m blanking right now. I think I’m, I think I’m just a bit like, just, we’ve spoken about so much. I’m, I have a like I say, I’m, I’m an extroverted introvert. I have a tendency to just give my entire self and then need to recharge. So yeah. In terms of, of media to absorb, I would just say, just go for, go like, if you feel a darkness, then don’t be afraid to lean into that darkness, obviously, like protect yourself as much as possible. Like if you’re not, if you don’t feel safe. But I, I think it’s so important, like so, so, so many people like run away from the dark and that just makes it come back stronger, you know? So just don’t be afraid to, to, to, to seek out the dark if you, if that’s what you need…

INDIGO: Yeah. 

CALLIE: …to process your own darkness. 

LEO: Thank you so much.

CALLIE: Thank you.

LEO: I, oh God. I sometimes sit while we record episodes and I’m like, wow. Like I, I will, I would listen to this. I would seek this out in podcast form, and I’m so grateful that you’ve given us your time and vulnerability today. It’s been an absolute delight, Callie. 

INDIGO: Yeah, it’s been so lovely to get to know you and talk to you.

LEO: And we should make some films together because I am a filmmaker and I, I will need some encores, you know? 

CALLIE: Oh my God. Okay, well, now you owe me an hour and 50 minutes of talking about you. Okay.

LEO: Okay, perfect. Over coffee. Over coffee, yeah.

CALLIE: Okay, yeah. Cause it’s like meant to be..

[upbeat drum based song]

INDIGO: I love this conversation with Callie. We just want to thank her so much for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure.

LEO: Make sure to follow Callie on social media. Also, What It Means To Be will be screening at the Spit It Out Fest in Glasgow at CCA on the 17th of June and in Edinburgh at Summer Hall on the 23rd of June. Make sure to check it out. 

INDIGO: Thank you so much for listening to this amazing episode, and stay tuned to our following episode next month.

[upbeat drum based song fades]