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INDIGO: Hello everyone and welcome to Changing the Frame. We’re your hosts. My name is Indigo Korres, and my pronouns are she and her. 

LEO: My name is Leo Torre, and my pronouns are he and they. We are a podcast that discusses trans and non-binary experiences in the film industries. Every episode will count with the appearance of trans and/or non-binary multimedia artists in the film industries to talk about their work. We’re really excited to share these amazing talks and discussions with you all. 

INDIGO: In today’s episode, we are joined by a lovely guest, Ava Ruah, who’s a visitor assistant and projectionist at Dundee Contemporary Arts. She has also done curatorial work programming Transcendent, which she describes as an exploration of the ways that people across generations have exceeded and pushed past perceived gender and sexual norms.

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LEO: This is Changing The Frame.

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LEO: Hello Ava. Thank you for joining us at Changing The Frame. If you would like to start by telling us about yourself and your background, please. 

AVA: Hello, it’s a real pleasure to join. I’m Ava Ruah. I’m a 24 year old year old trans woman based in Scotland, based in Glasgow. In terms of background, I currently am working as a projectionist and film curator and also a librarian, just cuz you know, I like to keep busy. And yeah, in terms of coming into like film and my background in film, it’s one where growing up I, I was always like around, well not around movies, but I was always like shown movies. Movies were a big part of like my home life as a kid. Like mom would always have like movies on. I saw so many movies way too young. Like one of, one of those like initial, like fundamentally changing movies for me was like Romeo Plus Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann one, and like 2000, like when I was five. And I was like that did something to my brain chemistry, I’ll tell you that much. So yeah, like getting into film has been kind of a natural progression from there. And yeah, I’ve also studied. I, like, I used to study computer games, technology, programming basically. And I’ve always just kind of been involved in a lot of like different creative industries and creative things.

INDIGO: That’s amazing. I mean, I’ve, I’ve known you for a few months now and I feel like I know loads of things about your career, but I didn’t know all of that. 

AVA: Yeah, it’s, it’s a really funny one. There’s always just like new things for me to bring up as it’s gonna be really exciting, like a year or so when I can also arguably start saying I’m also an archeologist on top of that.

INDIGO: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, oh, you’re applying to be an archeologist at uni as well. So in terms of programming and film, what made you pursue that? What made you pursue programming and also projecting? I feel like you’re one of the first projectionists that I know that are queer, and it’s a very like cishet industry in a way. I feel like every single projectionist that I know from venues across Scotland are called Paul and David’s, you know? 

AVA: Or Ian. 

INDIGO: Or Ian. Exactly. So I just wanted to know like what made you pursue those sort of careers in film and also what roadblocks did you face when you were starting out or is still facing now?

AVA: In terms of programming in particular, I think I’ve always been quite fascinated with I curation and the way that people show things and the way that like we create thematic like selections, we tie things together the way that different works complement each other, the way that different works contrast each other. I think, and obviously like curation and programming like as so much of very much filters how a lot of the public and people perceive and understand and experience like movies and art. Yeah, and it’s like a very vital and like interesting part of that pipeline of popular culture and it’s how so many people experience a lot of these things. In terms of projecting, that’s kind of just, it just seemed interesting. It just seemed quite fun. More than anything. It’s like, cause I, with the film stuff and like the general interest in film and like the interest in curation and particularly since like throughout my lifetime especially, was really like the first 10 years of my life, it was like film was still common in most cinemas, like as in like 35 mil, 70 mil. Like film print as a way of showing movies was like very much still kind of the norm. And it was like only just changing into digital and now the last 10 years, it’s like everything is digital. Nothing is film. Like a film is a once every three months exciting moment was like, oh, we have 35 mil in. And so I think projecting is like, that’s interesting. That’s cool. It’s like a, yeah, it’s a part of the film industry that doesn’t really have any light on it, obviously, because it’s just like, it’s in a room at the back and it’s like, this is just how it happens without really questioning it. And yeah, running, running the actual projectors is just a very cool thing as well. So it was very much: oh, that seems cool. Can I try? And I think also part of it is just like the projection booth, that little room at the back is cool in and of itself. It’s like you’re on your own, you like choose when to like interact with people, you are in control. It’s like you’re running the movies, you have all the power in like that moment. In terms of roadblocks, I think more so than anything is just the lack of general space and the lack of like actual opportunities and chances that are available. Like especially when it comes to projection, it’s the, those roles are all filled out. Like you mentioned, how like it’s a very, like most projectors you will meet are cis dudes who have been working for 30 years in that cinema. And it’s like that projection booth is their baby. They understand everything about it and yeah, they just love it. And they’re like, they’re not gonna retire anytime soon because like, you know, it’s like enough to get by on, but it’s like, it’s not an extravagant paying job. And it’s like, it’s also not very demanding, so you can kind of keep it up forever if you want to. And so there isn’t really that much room to move into it, I find. Like I’ve only seen like major independent cinemas, like just a few different, like actual openings since like 2018, it’s like three or four actual vacancies being like: Hey, come join us, come work as a projectionist. Cuz it doesn’t really ever, there’s not really turnover in there and it’s also a thing of just like they’re wetling it down because there doesn’t need to be as many people because you don’t need to like, It’s not as taxing cuz you’re not doing the like film projection anymore. You’re kind of just watching, you’re a glorified technician to some degrees most days because you’re just kind of watching the digital protection, making sure that they don’t mess up in some way. And yeah, as for the programming side of things, that’s. There isn’t really that much space. Like there’s a lot of people trying to get in, there’s a lot of people like going to uni and studying to actually work on that. I kind of got lucky not having to go that path and just being in a situation where, yeah, there was room for me to get a bit of experience doing it. But yeah, like funding is quite dry and like most places will have ideas of like, alright who can we like pick up or, well, not necessarily who can we pick up, but they have connections. They have like, oh, we know these people do this programming. We could maybe get them them on board. There isn’t that much room for like up and coming. And there’s, there are like schemes and fellowships and things are doing a bit of that, but. Do you kind of still, do you see them frankly, dry up a bit over time as well? Like, oh, it used to be like 10 fellowships or opportunities for new programmers and now it’s like five or two, or like a tune of just drips and drabs and…. But yeah, that’s kind of the main thing really. It’s the general shrinking of the industry in a lot of ways, especially with places like film house closing and the options get thinner and the people who are actually experienced then have to go find other things, which makes it even harder for like anyone new to get in.

LEO: I, I lived in Aberdeen for quite a while and one of my favorite places in the city was the Belmont Film House, which closed recently due to lack of funding. And it’s very upsetting cuz I have many good memories of plenty good films that I just can’t go see in the bigger mainstream cinemas and it’s just very sad, so yeah, I understand. I wanted to ask how. A shift goes like for you as a projectionist from beginning to end, what are the little things that you get doing from beginning to end in your day? 

AVA: So, to a great degree, it kind of depends on the schedule at that time. So like as in the program schedule for like the month going forward at the cinema. So, If it’s a fairly like standard week, like there’s no festivals or like many seasons coming up, then most of what we’ll be showing will be kinda of the standard fair. At my particular cinema, the DCA, the Dundee Contemporary Arts, it’s kind of an interesting in between that cinema because it’s a smaller charity, it’s an independent cinema, and so there is very much like a focus on like that smaller movies, art house movies, foreign movies, but it’s also the only cinema like in the Dundee city center. And so there is like a level of like, okay, we, we kind of owe the people who come here, like the movies that most people want to see. So you get that mix of like the blockbusters and the smaller art cinema at the same time. And so that’s always like an interesting little thing going on of like, oh yeah, there’s these movies which are like, probably gonna sell out, in a lot of cases are gonna be more popular, which frankly, there’s a bit less testing. Like most of them are gonna be digital, most of them are gonna be so planned and well done that like once it arrives, it’s basically good to go. You don’t really need to test like you’ll, you’ll check it and you’ll test it to make sure it’s not catastrophically falling apart somehow in this ending, but like, it’s gonna be fine in most cases. But yeah, so like an average day when it’s like quiet, there isn’t really any like special events going on it’ll be the software we use like has a schedule, it like sets, you can set the movie up for like each time they’re supposed to start. That lets you know when they’re gonna end. You make like a playlist with like the film, intro slides, trailers, adverts and just like all the important cues. So like making sure the projector’s on, turning the lights down, turning the lights up. They had the sound volumes and switching to like scope or flat, depending on the movie. So there’s like, that stuff is like making up playlists, setting the schedule. But once the movies are actually running, you’re basically checking like as have the cues gone, right? Has the lights gone down? Is the sound at the right volume? Is the sound on? It’s like actually switched to the film zone. It’s not playing some random music and nobody’s gonna come in half an hour in be like, why is Jamira playing? You’re just like, what do you mean? I don’t think Jamo is on any of our playlists, and I don’t know why that was my go-to, but I know I think we should add Jamer to some of the playlists. And just making sure the film is like actually running, right? There’s collection delivery of any like hard drives for the DCPs. There’s checking the like online servers that we get movies sent into. There’s just like that kind of maintenance and like housekeeping of tidy these servers, there’s too many movies here, we have to move these movies over, this movie stop screening, delete that, blah, blah, blah. Then like all the time, there is gonna be like movies that we have to ingest and we have to encode, but that’s particularly busier times. So if we have a festival coming up and we’re having like the normal schedule for like two weeks, but then we have to like pre-prepare a whole festival schedule like a month, two weeks in advance, and so we have to you get all these movies in, whether it’s hard drives, whether it’s sometimes MP4s if their DCP isn’t working. These are DCP is just the actual file format that film or the projector runs the film from. And MP4 is like, you know, standard video format and we have to like encode that into a DCP. That’s what I mean when I’m talking about encoding. So there is like, so like Blueray, we’re gonna have to rep that and then encode that and then chuck that on, make sure it’s not, cuz that’s the one that like can blow up in your face and you’ll be like, all right, this is looking good. And then you’ll skip halfway in and suddenly like three frames skip out of nowhere and the subtitles is just turn into like Chinese subtitles for like five minutes. You’re like, what happened here? So when it gets to that, those periods, it’s a lot busier. There’s a lot more like going on, you’re pretty much constantly like checking movies, testing movies, just trying to like wrap, encode and like sort everything. Trying to keep on top of it. But yeah, that’s kind of the average day is maybe you have to test one or two things. You have to make sure everything’s running right and make sure nothing messes up in the queues, and just make sure the building doesn’t go on fire, fundamentally.

INDIGO: I find it so fascinating, like being a projectionist. Cause I’m so bad with technology and I know cuz with SQIFF’s tech coordinator, like she’s an angel because turning everything into a DCP, it just takes so long and you know, the files are so big as well, and then to download them to the server, to then send to the cinemas is like a whole thing. And yeah, honestly, I admire your job.

AVA: There is a lot of weighing, like the other week the DCA has its Dundead festival, its horror festival coming up and like one movie wasn’t coding, a couple movies were ripping and it was just like starting everything, dashing everything away. But because it takes so long, cause the fails are so massive, it’s like 200 gigabytes worth of data at once. It’s like taking an hour and a half to actually turn into a DCP. It’s taking an hour to like just transfer onto a hard drive and you’re just sat there like, I’m gonna go sit in the sun for a bit.

INDIGO: Exactly.

AVA: I’m, I’m gonna go chat to someone. I’m gonna entertain myself. There’s nothing else to do right now.

INDIGO: Also, the projection room at DCA is so beautiful. I remember you gave me a tour of it, was it December? 

AVA: Yes. In December. 

INDIGO: And seeing the 35 and 17 millimeter projectors, that was really cute. 

AVA: It’s of any projection room I’ve seen as. Definitely my favorite. I’m not biased, I swear. But yeah, I think it’s like a very fun one because our chief projectors have made it like a projection museum. So there’s, it’s not just like, here’s the digital projectors, here’s 35 mil, if we ever need to run those. There’s like, as soon as you walk in, there’s I think six older, 35 mil projectors, like I think one’s from like the thirties, one was used in… I can never remember the name of it, but it was one of the studios that they used to do like soundtracks in. So it’d be like this projector would be at one end of a room, like in a little booth on its own. It’s this like thin, narrow, cramped ass room. An entire orchestra would go in there, faded, project the movie onto the screen, and then the orchestra would be playing the score like kinda as it’s going and like working on it as it’s going. And I think they did like that one in particular that we have in that in the DCA has like worked on some of the Bond, like the seventies Bond movies. I can’t remember. I can never remember Bond movie names. Like there’s Golden Eye and then, I don’t know, I, there’s a Thunder something or other like Thunderball or something. I think that like, that may have been one of them. I don’t remember. I haven’t watched Bond. 

LEO: There’s so many of them as well. 

AVA: So many of them. I get confused. 

LEO: Just, just some Bond movie. 

AVA: Yeah, some Bond movie. You know, one of the old ones. 

INDIGO: See, I find that so fascinating, like the projectors. I’m very excited to go back to DCA and actually take more time to look into them later this month. I was just gonna ask like, what else do you enjoy about your job and what is one of your favourite films that you have projected in the past? 

AVA: Ooh. So I mean there’s like a lot I really enjoy about my job in terms of the projecting. Just the general stuff, like as a very chill workload, like cuz there’s like constantly things to do and I love like working with tech. Like that’s why, like I was originally studying like games programmings, cuz like, I like that was one where I was like, I was going to uni and I was like, I don’t know what the hell I’m gonna do. And I guess I like games and I guess I like tech and I guess I like programming and like that didn’t work out. But like that love for tech hasn’t really gone, I still like really enjoy working with it and like interacting with it a lot. So it’s like quite a deeply satisfying thing. It’s like you’re very in control of your workload in there because. You ha- Like you’re doing 12 to 11 PM chefs, or at least at my cinema, you’re doing 12 to 11 PM shifts. Like you’re doing the full day. You’re in there like alone cuz there’s no one else. Like, there’ll maybe be someone from the cinema team coming down to like, oh, can we check on this? Can we check on this? How’s this looking? Or have these movies come in? Have these movies gone out? For the most part though, you are kinda on your own. You control like when you go and see other people, that’s frankly, one of the best perks is like if you’re just like, I’m tired today, I’m gonna stay in here and I’m not gonna talk to anyone. You have so much power to do that. But yeah, there’s just that, working with tech and just being constantly surrounded by movies, you’re like constantly testing things. You’re constantly just watching things. Because there is like that downtime and if like something’s recording, something’s repping or you’re just like nothing specifically to do in that moment you’re like, I’m just gonna like check out this movie. The best bit of the job is obviously actually running the film print because at no other point do you feel like quite so active, like you very much feel like you’re putting on a show. It does not happen often, it’s, oh, what do we have? We’d had to have um, on print cuz we were doing the sight and sound like best movies season over April. So we were like showing like Citizen Kane, Jan Dalman, Revi and the Mid for love and things, but Revi, we actually had on print. I was not there for it. I was very bitter about it cause I was working in Glasgow, but I was like, Uh, I don’t, I was apparently like a very gorgeous print as well. But yeah, that’s definitely the funnest bit cuz you’re like actively working on it. You’re… I suppose like in terms of working with print, so you get in, it’ll often come in, like, depends on the length of movies. Like seven reels is pretty standard for like, I don’t know, around 40 minutes or so. Cause every reel is roughly 20 minutes-ish, give or take. Like there it’s always like a little rough, rougher. So there are sometimes be less reels, sometimes more. And this is for 35 mil specifically. So you get those in some cinemas will just run each reel on its own. That’s a lot of changeovers. So the changeover is just when you change from one wheel to the other, which is why every cinema is gonna have like 2 35 mil projectors if they’re running mil film. So what we do is we splice it up into two reels. So just two bigger ones, like four reels on one of the big ones and three reels on the other. Just so there’s like, we simplify it. Don’t need to change over too much. Depending on the length of the movie. Again, like sometimes it’ll be like three big reels, but. We work with what you got. So like you do that whole process, you have to do quite a lot of testing. You have to make sure it’s like tight enough. You have to make sure it’s like all good quality. You know, you have to like understand like what state the film is in so that you like take the best care of it, cuz if you’re passing on to another cinema and then they look back and they’re like, this is crap quality. Who had it last? You don’t wanna get blamed for anything that happens to it. You want to be, you want to like, for people to look at and be like, this is in great condition. That last cinema, they, they know their stuff. So yeah, there’s like a lot of testing involved. There’s like a lot of like noting down cues, noting down like when to swap, when to start, how long it takes. But there’s a lot to do with that, you’re very actively involved. And then at the end where you’re like, because you have to basically be tied to the 35 mil projectors like the entire time the film is running because if it suddenly gets jammed, you have to move fast to had to have the film clean and keep moving and make sure no damage actually happens and to make sure it doesn’t just like suddenly freeze and then everyone’s and the cinema like, what the hell just happened? And yeah, when the movie’s actually finished and you’re sat there like just letting the reel run out and you’re like just watching out over the credits and people are coming up past and they’re like peeking under the projection booth. It’s like you feel like you’ve done something. You feel like, yeah, you’ve actually put on a performance, you’ve given these people a proper show and it’s a very, it’s a much more like active and involved part of the like cinema experience. And it feels like a lot more fulfilling doing that. Like even though like just showing movies in general is like, yeah, great feeling, y’all are welcome. When it’s 35 mil, you feel very at the heart of it. 

LEO: We are gonna move on to talking about programming now, and we wanted to discuss your Transcendent programme in particular. What was the process like to pick Donna, Maisie and Paris Is Burning to be part of the program? 

AVA: So with Transcendent, picking… So the actual picking of the films was pretty straightforward. How it all came about in the first place was, I’m gonna say it diplomatically, I negotiated, I discussed with the head of cinema about like getting some practice in curation and programming. What actually happened was I, I bothered her until she was like, here’s this thing. So yeah, I’d like been talking to her for a while, but like, yeah, it’d be interesting to do this. She was like, yeah, it would actually be good to like have, like develop those skills like in house and give those pe, give people the opportunity to like do that kind of thing within the building. And then it was 2022 and we got a screening for Donna and it was like, and so she approached me and she was like, yeah, we could do something with this. Like it definitely, it’s one, it’d be like nice to like kind of expand into like queer cinema more broadly and kinda do something specific for that. And it would be nice to put on like a proper event for it. Like whether that’s Q&A, whether that’s discussion and you know, it would be like a good practice for me. It was like kind of the initial selling point and then like the same distributor came back with Maisie and it was like, okay, let’s discuss this. Will we show like one or the other? Will, like what we’ll do around them? And so it was like just kind of a gradual discussion eventually it was like, well, why don’t we show both of ’em like, like a mini season and do like a thing around it to actually make it part of the program rather than just like a one-off event. So in that sense, Donna and Maisie were kind of set up from the get go and it was it dead work that it ties into like a lot of what I do outside of like film as well where like I have a general interest and I do a lot of work in histories in general and particularly like queer histories. And I do have a particular focus and interest on like intergenerational queer communities and intergenerational trans communities and like that focus on older LGBT people, which gets lost or gets mangled or gets put through like certain lenses because of, cause of a variety of things. But like, particularly cuz of like the AIDS crisis and like conceptions of really like, you know, rightwing conceptions of like, oh, trans people have only existed for 20 minutes. And so it was like a sit down we were like discussing it and we were like, what? Alright if we do something like this, if we make it season, like what will we put around it? What will we put? Like what will be like the third movie? Or like, how many movies necessarily? And when it was like, what’s the next movie gonna be? I think it was kind of like, well, they’re both very much like focused around like older LGTB people and like around like queer history. And it also has like a focus on like drag and like queer communities in drag. And it was like, well, Paris Is Burning. That seems an obvious one. Like obviously cuz it was like such or relatively was like such a big movie and is such like a piece of like queer film history and it kind of like tied all together and it was like, alright, there’s like present older queer people, like very much reflecting on their lives, reflecting on like past and who they are and who they are now and like the changes and things. But also a piece kind of granted only in the nineties, but still more of its time and like, oh, it was like very, in a very different circumstance than we kind of are in in the past, even just decade. So yeah, that kind of all came together. It was, and it was like, yeah, let’s do a thing on history. And then it was just a process of like, How are we gonna build around it? What are we gonna do around it? What other things can we put around it? It then became a question of like, and the real programming kind of became, alright, what are we putting alongside it? Are we doing shorts? Are we doing discussions? Are we doing, you know, myriad of other things ultimately, especially with Paris Is Burning, it was like, okay, this is like an important film in terms of like queer film history. It’s also one that’s dealt with like a lot of critique and has a lot of like problems with it and like with, you know, the relationship between like the director and the people filmed and like, you know, the nature of like, there’s like so many questions, but like, not questions. There’s problems around like how much of a share the actual people filmed in the movie received as a result of like kind of the surprise success of the movie. And it was important, yeah, it was very much important to like, have people who were like intelligent and like very involved in like the ballroom scene and like that queer scene who knew how to like critique it well and like actually bring light and educate other people on what it’s like and why it is a problem. So that panel discussion for Paris Is Burning with House Ball Scotland hosted by you was really beneficial. And I think one of my preferred events from the weekend. But, so yeah, we also wanted to give it like very much a Scottish element and like, tie it in. So it’s like, because yeah, Paris Is Burning, obviously American, Donna is like, oh, it’s a Welsh director, but it’s a trans woman in San Francisco. And Maisie is I think an all English production, if I remember right. So we wanted to give it like a bit more of a local feel and like a Scottish feel and some representation in that sense. So we had Everyman by Jack Goessens a Dutch filmmaker who’s been living in Scotland and it’s, it’s a Scottish production. It’s like a very much, like a relevant part of it. So we wanted like that element in like a film at least like produced in Scotland, made in Scotland, kind of exploring the same themes and ideas. And then also part of the program we had Queer Stories. A performance by Shaper Caper, which is a queer dance group based in Dundee. 

INDIGO: I know you already went into a little bit of the question that I was gonna ask next. I think because you’re new to curation, I, I, I don’t like, I feel like you did such a great job, like getting complimentary events into the films that you’ve picked. And also, like you said, for, I mean I, I unfortunately couldn’t go to the other two events, but I went to Paris Is Burning and I did host the discussion and it was, I think something great that you did with that was that you were like, we are thinking of showing this film. You can do the conversation the way that you want it and kind of bring it to the community, the film is about to discuss about it within ourselves. Cuz then it was me and Nusa and Eve from House Ball Scotland and we kind of mentioned the, the reasons why the film was criticised since the director was a white cis lesbian that was kinda bringing this anthropological lens into the Black and Latin queer community in New York and yeah. And it was great as well because then we could push that into House Ball Scotland, like the amazing work that they’re doing in Scotland right now. And yeah, it was… I just wanna like say that you did such a great job putting those complimentary events together because curation is not only picking the films, but creating the environment that they are put in. So, yeah, I didn’t know it was the first time that you were curating something, so like you did such a great job with that. 

AVA: Thank you.

INDIGO: Yeah, so I, I mean, we didn’t send this question through earlier, but it just came up to my head like, because you were new to this process, would, have you done anything differently this time around, now that you have some experience around curation? 

AVA: I think probably. I think broadly speaking, particularly with the complimentary events, it was, yeah, like my focus and my idea is still gonna remain like it should be, particularly if you’re doing a programme around topics that you’re not necessarily like personally like involved in or. Yeah, something that doesn’t necessarily come from your experience. Ultimately, film is a very communal thing, and so I think it’s important for communities to really actively be involved. And I think that matters in programming, especially in programming queer cinema, and a cinema for like any marginalised group is gonna be always relevant to bring in voices of those communities and actually say. So I think generally that is something that like, yeah, I wouldn’t necessarily change. There’s like a couple things. I think because it was a first time, I think in general I was just like, you know, nervous. I was like uh and I was like taught a lot, but there were like a lot of things that I kinda was, I almost felt like, I mean, you’re like the professional and I think there is a degree of like, I’d like to maybe be more, or like, yeah, coming out of it perhaps I’d like to be more assertive in some ways. But that’s more to do with like, you know, really kind of being more actively involved with like a lot of like the film choices and like be more actively involved with like, discussions with the distributors, which like I was involved in, but like to a slightly lesser degree. And like stuff about funding and perhaps like, Just generally being able to like be more actively involved in a lot of the things. Ultimately what? Looking back, I’m like, yeah, I maybe wasn’t like, I was maybe too passive at some moments where I should have been like, oh, how about this? Or how about you like actively walk me through this or teach me about this and then I can do it myself.

LEO: I find it very interesting how you talk about film being a communal experience because it is something that gets made by oftentimes more than just one person, and it is consumed by oftentimes, again, more than just one person, and it is very important for communities to get to tell their own stories by themselves and for themselves. So I wanted to ask you about the impact that you want your work to have on the trans community, but also in general, and what it is that you’re trying to achieve by making the programming that you make and the projectionist work that you do. 

AVA: I think fundamentally what I’d like to do is yeah, like bring it back to communities like elevate the work of communities, really focus on like those outside of like the city systems and like major productions and kind of tried to tie in with like, smaller, more local independent productions, which sometimes might be like more hit or miss, but ultimately it’s still a matter of just like, yeah, but just having that opportunity to like be seen can always like make a difference in a lot of cases. I’d like to kind of provide a platform. But I think also it’s a matter for me of like, I’d like to take a lot of like film and like media that’s like more niche and show that it doesn’t have to be, and like program it in a way to say like, oh, there’s a lot of room for interest in this. There’s a lot of like, room to interpret and experience this and like it can be for anyone, like queer cinema doesn’t have to be for queer people, Black cinema doesn’t have to be for Black people. Experimental cinema doesn’t have to be for nerdy little freaks like me. You know, any like it’s something that, yeah, I want to really create programs that are able to, on some level, expand people’s thoughts and like give people different experiences of what media can be and what film can be. 

INDIGO: I know you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but in terms of accessing funding, like what was the process like for you to access funding for the Transcendent project or if you’ve accessed funding for other projects? And how was DCA’s help in that sense too? Cuz I think you mentioned the DCA got a little bit of funding and then you were able to do that. So if you could expand on that a little bit. That would be amazing. 

AVA: So the majority of the funding for Transcendent came from the Covid Recovery Fund. Like it was, I think it was like a perfect storm of like, I’d been talking to the head of cinema, um, Alice Black for a while, and yeah, I’d had like enough conversation I’d like been mentioning like, oh yeah, like I’m trying for this, I’m trying for this. And then like, yeah, the last time we kind of had us sit down, like before it was like, oh hey, got this movie in, wanna talk about it? The Covid Recovery Fund, like was just coming in and yeah, talking to her, it was like proposing yeah, here’s like some random things I’d be like interested in. And she was like, okay. And I think she was like taking a note, like, okay, there’s some things we could do with this. And I, it was just good timing that it was like, well, we’ve got the money, we’ve got the extra budget space and we only have a year to use it. So we have the money to pay you. We have the money to pay for like a couple movies. We have the money to pay for like guest appearances, let’s make something happen. So I think it was very much a perfect storm. So like a lot of the funding was thanks to that. But there was a couple grants we did apply for. And DCA in terms of like, yeah, well the head of cinema, like very much walking through it was like, here’s like, here’s like some of the ways like you find funding, here’s some of the ways you can like apply for funding. She kinda like, talked me through it, was like, I think this is what we’re gonna go for. This is what they do. We just like, this is what I’ll need from you. This is what, like I’ll be able to provide, this is what you’ll need to do. So yeah, there was like a lot of like assistance in actually getting to that point. And I think the funding itself was, because it was through the DCA, accessible enough and was like manageable and was a fairly easy process. But we were in that good position of we weren’t relying on that funding. And I think it’s a bit different like applying independently and without like other like backup funding or other sourcing when you’re just like doing it kind of on your own. Or when you’re like just pitching freelance and you’re kind of like, yeah, we can do this, this, this. So it was like at that time, Good for Transcendent. Funding opportunities in general, a little difficult. I mean, especially this year when funding for everything is drying up and like local governments are just dying for it. But at the time, really good and DCA was very helpful with it. But yeah, funding is like a tricky one.

LEO: It really is. What other creative practices are you interested in or any other hobbies at all? Because you mentioned gaming before as well. Is that still an interest? 

INDIGO: And archeologist 

LEO: And archeology? Yeah.

AVA: This is where I got unbearable, but I was thinking about this like just a couple weeks ago. I was like, how do I introduce myself to people? And I’m like, okay. It’s easy enough to like say, like if someone asks me like what I do, it’s easy enough to say like projection and libraries, but there’s like all the tangential stuff. So, at the moment I would describe it more of as a hobby, maybe at some point it’ll get like actually released, but work into that, I’m just having fun with it. I do a lot of like music stuff, whether it’s like production or just like messing about and like synth or with instruments. I think music to a degree was like my big love growing up creatively and like artistically. And I feel like there’s still like a lot of things I look through, almost through the lens of music, if that makes sense. Like, I don’t know. All right. Here’s a weird one. Whenever I watch sports, I look at it very rhythmically. I always look at it through that like, through like a particular lens of artistry that I think, like in my brain, I. I, I’m almost comparing the movements to like music. This comes through more in like certain sports than others. 

LEO: My first thought was, ping pong table. 

AVA: Ping pong is very…

LEO: There’s like a really good rhythm to it.

AVA: Oh, yeah. No, that is like, there’s a beat, there’s a beat to a ping pong table.

LEO: Yeah.

AVA: For me as well, it’s like basketball as whereas… And like where, like where you can see like other teams having different rhythms and how those like coalesce and how those make the game. So yeah, music is a very big one. Video games are still very present. I don’t really do as much like programming stuff anymore. It’s kind of like, at this point I’ve mostly just play, like, I still occasionally like do a little bit, like I’ll program a little bit or like make a model or I’ll like help out with like a friend who’s like, oh yeah, I’m doing this thing. But yeah, the moment, that’s like very casual hobby. And then I have a big ass bookshelf right in front of me. I’m just like, yeah, I read a lot. Write, I’ll do that with an asterisk. Or again, it’s like, not really. I write for myself, but like, oh, maybe at some point. Yeah. And a lot of things, I’m kind of, I kind of get easily interested. I just, I see shiny things, I walk towards it. Like I’ve worked in galleries as well for the last seven years, like pretty constantly. 

INDIGO: And you’re working in a library as well, right?

AVA: And I work in a library, so that ties into the books thing of like, yeah, there’s constantly surrounded by books and yeah, like working in galleries for seven years. Like there’s a lot of interest in like a lot of different forms of like particularly contemporary art, but you know, like I’m open to like, fine art, traditional art things. So yeah, I, I kind of just love diving into everything and just picking up bits and pieces from everything I’m interested in. 

INDIGO: I can’t remember who of my friends, but there’s someone that has their, on their bio, a queer of many talents, and I feel like that’s your, you know?

AVA: I would take that, I would happily take that. 

INDIGO: Someone that is interested in so many things.

AVA: Oh wait. Yeah, that, that’s another thing. Yeah. Going back for ancient history and archeology history is a very big one. It’s like a lot. There’s like that focus on like queer histories and there’s… But generally there’s like a lot of interest and many areas of history with, you know, a particular thing for like modern history and ancient history. Middle ages stuff. I’m like, yeah, this is interesting. Not quite as much though.

INDIGO: I was just, we’re we’re getting to the end, not quite at the end, but we’re getting to the end. And I was gonna ask like, what advice would you give or share for trends creators that are just starting out? And that could be in any of the areas that you’ve worked with, which are quite a lot. But if you could give any advices, what would you, what would you share? 

AVA: I do struggle a little to like give advice cuz… to I think, not unfair degree, I do look at it, but it’s like I’m just quite lucky. It’s something I have specifically worked on and it’s like, it’s not like this luck comes out of nowhere, but for me it’s very much like, like I build relationships, I build communities and I surround myself with interesting people where opportunities just kind of happen and like people just know things and people know other people and it’s like, oh hey, you’re interested in this. And it’s like, okay. So it’s kind of hard to give specific advice cuz I feel like that’s not an easy thing to do and it feels cheap to just be like, oh yeah, just put yourself out there. Cause that’s not really what it is either. It’s very situational dependent. But yeah, I would say, you know, just look for community. Don’t work on that grind set. Cause you know, it’s, and so many things, and particularly in this world, like a lot of things are framed as like, like, you gotta like work hard and you’re gonna do this individually. That’s not really how I’d say most things work. Like it’s communally, it’s people, you know. And also I just say like, broaden yourself, open your mind, expand your horizons. Like read weird things you wouldn’t think to, watch weird movies you wouldn’t think to, dive in to anything and everything and just see what sticks.

LEO: I think that pushing oneself to find community and then get weird with it and find stuff that inspires you and it’s good advice. A bit off in that line, cuz you say, try and find things that inspire you, we ask this to everybody: it’s the last question. But what other forms of media? They can be queer. They don’t have to be queer, they don’t have to be by trans people, but they can be by trans people. And you can recommend films, podcasts, books, music. But yeah, if there’s anything you would like to recommend to our lovely audience, why would it be? 

AVA: First thing I always recommend and I always demand everyone I know play it. Kentucky Route Zero. So it’s a game. It’s now on, basically everything is on, originally it was just on steam, on pc. Now it’s on switch, Xbox, PS4. It’s, that’s a beautiful magical realist game, like point and click adventure about poverty and community in rural Kentucky. And it’s very much like exploring the ways people live when they’re left behind. Ah, monumentally good game. In terms of other media… I’m gonna stuck on games for a second because I also wanna recommend Disco Elysium and recency bias, but Pentiment. Pentiment is… both games are like point and click adventures. Again, both are actually murder mysteries. Both are kind of clearly inspired by Kentucky Route Zero. But both just…. incredible, incredible games. In terms of film, one of my favourite movies is Bi Gan’s Long Day’s Journey Into Night, which was released in 2018. And I remember seeing it because I was working as an usher at the cinema and. I was like, just looking at, I was like, just setting up and someone came down and was like, oh yeah, we’ll need to have a 3D glasses. I’m like, we have a 3D movie in? And I went into projection. I was like, what 3D movie do we have in? And our chief projection was like, oh, it’s, it’s just the last hour as well. And I was like, what the, what do you mean the last hour in 3D? But that is a gorgeous, gorgeous movie. Just it feels very much about cinema. It’s about memory and dreams and where they cross over and where film intersects with that. And it’s stunning. And it’s problematic. Cause I, I’m like, I’ll gush over this movie for ages and I’m like, I’m never gonna see it again unless it comes to a cinema because I don’t have a 3D TV. But that last hour is like a 3D one shot and it’s stupid, but it’s so good.

INDIGO: I kind of wanna watch it now. 

LEO: Yeah. 

AVA: So, I love that movie. A movie I watched relatively recently, released in 2014, Something Must Break by Esther Martin Bergsmark. It’s just really good, just really good. Sometimes I can’t say more than that. I’m just like, oh, that’s really good. Beautiful trans story. Music, I can go on for ages, but I’m gonna keep it short and sweet. For me, the stuff that has impacted me the most or impacted my creative practices the most has been jazz in particular, and especially Ornette Coleman. And I’d, I’d say just listen to Ornette Coleman, but in particular The Shape Of Jazz To Come. It’s free jazz. Very much not for everyone. It’s the very like improvisational, lacking structure. It’s very avant-garde, but like incredible. It’s just like the extent of what you can do with music and with sound and with creativity. And then, yeah, other than that, like I’d say like, you know, Herbie Hancock, Miles Davis, like particularly like if you just like pick up bits of Miles Davis throughout the decades and the evolution from like that kind of starting like bebop sound to the jazz fusion of the 80s, like remarkable. And then I’m gonna be unbearable. I’m gonna say Steely Dan as well. I love Steely Dan. This this isn’t even like a one for creativity. I’m just like Steely Dan Rock. Steely Dan are good. Yeah. I’d also say De La Soul and MFDOOM, just for being very particular creatives in very different directions in terms of like De La Soul is very, very precise, very technical, and MFDOOM is funny and just smart. And way and brilliant. And then, yeah. I’d also say a little thing on like trans people in music as well, like Against Me, Wendy Carlos. There’s, there’s a lot of electronics, music and electronic sound that you can just be like, oh, that’s a trans woman. There’s like so many genres of electronic music, but you can like chop it down to like, Five and it’s wherever, wherever, wherever, wherever trans women made it.

INDIGO: I need to play those video games, watch those films, and listen to those music recommendations. 

LEO: I have had Disco Elysium on my list for a good while. 

AVA: Play it so good. I say even anyone who’s like not interested in Disco Elysium like enter in terms of what we hear, the like plot and things. I’m just like play it for the personality traits. Because they’re hilarious. They’re brilliant. 

LEO: Nice. 

AVA: It’s a great system. 

INDIGO: Thank you Ava, so much for joining us today. I’ve wanted to have you on the podcast for so long now and it’s just so nice to meet other people in the industry that is in Scotland and you know, have those connections and actually meet in person. So yeah, I just wanna say thank you so much for joining us and for all the work that you’re doing. It’s incredible. And I can’t wait to see the projection room again. So you need to show me, you need to give me a little tour again. 

AVA: I’ll give you the full breakdown. Absolutely. Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me on. It’s been a, a real pleasure.

[upbeat drum based song]

LEO: I love this conversation with Ava so much. We just want to thank her for joining us today. It’s been a massive pleasure. 

INDIGO: Make sure to follow Ava on social media to check out her work. 

LEO: Thank you so much for listening to this amazing episode, and stay tuned for the following episode next month.

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