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LEO: Hello everyone and welcome to Changing the Frame. We are your hosts. My name is Leo Torre and my pronouns are he and him. 

INDIGO: My name is Indigo Korres and my pronouns are she and her. Changing the Frame is a podcast that discusses trans and non-binary experiences in the film industries. Every episode comes with the appearance of a trans and or non binary multimedia artist in the film industries joining us in conversation about their work. We’re really excited to share these amazing talks and discussions with you all. 

LEO: The very lovely guest for today’s episode is Autojektor. Autojektor is an experimental filmmaker and visual artist based in London, UK. She practises cameraless filmmaking by recovering film and using a series of artistic approaches to repurpose the original image. She has showcased her practice through workshops in spaces such as Camp Trans, and her work has been included in the Analogue Cookbook, a film publication dedicated to promoting accessibility in celluloid filmmaking.

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INDIGO: This is Changing the Frame.

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INDIGO: Hello Robin, how are you? 

AUTOJEKTOR: Doing good, doing good. How’s everyone there? 

INDIGO: Yeah, good. I’m so excited to chat with you about this and I’m so excited that you’re here. Um, I know we spent some time together in London, which was really lovely. Um, but professionally, let’s… I just want to get to know more about you, me and Leo. Um, so if you could tell us a little bit more, a little bit about yourself and your background, what you do in terms of film stuff. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Uh, I studied film at uni. And then classic art student, no jobs, had to end up working in Tesco’s. And then after that, gaining no money, it was kind of like, how do I move back into film? And then eventually managed to stumble across finding old analogue footage. And then being like, well, how can I make films with this? And then that’s basically started my, what I’ve been doing for like, how old am I now? For like the last year, like eight years, basically. So it’s kind of been, kind of been that. It’s not really been like this crazy rollercoaster of stories. It’s been like this interesting ro like, choo choo train chugging along of like, building up momentum and momentum, like doing music videos, experimenting, like, in different types of film, but then still just, like, this core idea. Just building and building and building. So that’s kind of it, really. And it’s just been persistence and pushing with, um, kind of a core idea, moving away from it, letting the little tentacles of it, like, disperse into other ideas. But, like, with different influences coming in, to have big music backgrounds, especially within like punk rock music as well, and like hardcore punk, which is like the type of music I’ve done music videos for, it’s like pretty obvious that’s kind of the only thing I really end up doing. It’d be interesting to expand further, but it’s the one that I find the most joy in. I mean like nice, short, minute and a half, really angry, short songs. It’s kind of, like, the song version of what my films are anyway. 

INDIGO: I love your films. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Well, thank you. Thank you. I’m a big fan of them too. I quite like them. They’re good. They’re good. 

LEO: That’s good. You have to, you have to feel confident about what you make. And I also very much enjoy it. I saw on your website you have… God, I wish I had the name in front of me now, but there was a very nice, short song that was like very punk, very punk rock, and I really enjoyed it. I feel like you matched the visuals and the sound very good. 

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s an interesting one, yeah. It’s always the one that kind of gets brushed under the carpet. Especially because I make, like, apart from the music videos, I make all my sound myself anyway. So it’s just like one of those interesting ones where it’s just like, oh, it’s just there. I’m like, I know it’s… I don’t know if that means it’s good, and just people go like, Oh, it just fits in so well, nobody needs to ask about it. 

LEO: What made you want to pursue filmmaking? Why did you choose to study film, and why did you choose to, like, go into this practice? 

AUTOJEKTOR: Well, I, I grew up as, uh, like a horror movie fan, primarily. And so, like, really into, like, the really practical effect ones, so Sam Raimi’s work with The Evil Dead was a huge influence. Same with anything Cronenberg, anything body horror, anything gross. And when I was really young, like, it was Ray Harryhausen was like my… I was the biggest fan of Ray Harryhausen’s work. And so like, they’re all films where the filmmaking is like right at the forefront. So, you don’t watch Jason and the Argonauts and go like, wow, that’s real. You’re like, holy shit, Ray Harryhausen sat in a room. Like, even at a six year old, you can see the filmmaking process. So, I think after getting really into film at a young, like, a young age and becoming a teenager, and still being into horror movies that much, just the actual filmmaking process just came naturally. It’s like, well, I really want to do this. I can see how it’s made, like, The Evil Dead, you can literally see all the strings. You can see, you know, behind the scenes, like, within it. And it’s like, oh shit, I want to make this. Like, I can do this. I want to do something like that. 

INDIGO: I went to one of your workshops and it was really fun. And yeah, just the tactile aspect of the work that you do and recovering and destroying like 8mm film. Like, where, where do you source the film from? 

AUTOJEKTOR: The film, it’s easy. That one’s just basically eBay. It is really just, like, going… I mean, it’s interesting trying to find the interesting stuff in eBay. It’s sort of, like, learning different types of language that, because, like, ideally the stuff I want is found, nobody’s looked at it before, nobody’s checked it out, gone, oh, there’s nothing interesting on that, I’ll sell it. It’s kind of finding the stuff that, there’s a box, it’s full, my favourite bit I found was just a box full of dead spiders and film. So, trying to find that where people are like, somebody might want this, I don’t want to look at it, just send it on out, from like, it was found in the back of a barn, and it was just full of spiders, and it was like, I don’t know what this is, I know it’s some sort of film, but I’m not looking at it because it’s gross, and then just send it out. That’s the stuff that I need to find. If you just Google 8, if you eBay 8mm film, you’re going to get stuff that is just palmed off, that’s going to be boring, there’s not going to be anything on it, but you need to find the little gems within eBay, and so that’s the interesting part, it’s just trawling through page after page.

INDIGO: Yeah, I remember when I was in London chatting with you and you were saying about other stories of found footage that you have found on eBay, do you want to share a bit more of the other parcels that you got?

AUTOJEKTOR: The most interesting one was most likely that, that one batch with all the dead spiders and rusty nails in it. It was literally just a wooden crate that some, the person had gone like, look, the guy that owned this is dead, like, I’m just cleaning stuff out of his house. Because those are the really good ones. They’re just sort of like, yeah, like house clearances, and it’s sort of people trying to make money out of it, essentially. Because I don’t know who’s selling their family heirlooms, but people still do that, which I find fucking weird, but they do it, I buy it, I’m fine, I’m happy with that. But the, that one particular one with all the spiders and nails, that was interesting, because the footage was not, it’s usually of, it’s like the patriarch of the family, it’s the man of the household who has the money to spend on this. And so, it’s his, like, little baby, it’s his little hobby, nobody else is allowed to touch it, so that’s the footage you get. Very sterile, kind of boring, every now and then there’s a perv shot of a family member, like, it’s standard of what you’re expecting of a man of that age. I’m sorry, but it is. It’s just like, there’s a perv shot in every single batch. There always is. But this one is a, that one was of like, a 20 year old who was shipped off to military in his camera. So, that was even worse. That was even worse. And it was all been water damaged as well, so there’s sort of like… the whole of the footage. Um, one of the music videos is mainly using that footage actually, and it’s all water damaged. It’s by a, a band called To Languish is the, the song, and then the music video that, or most of the ambient footage is water… water damage footage from that particular batch of film. It’s all fairly innocuous stuff. It’s more of sort of like dance parties and stuff. There’s some pretty cool footage in there. There’s a lot of different stuff, and then I started importing stuff from Japan as well, where the actual style of footage you get is, again, totally different, because there’s a mentality where it’s more of a toy, like the 8mm camera is to be passed around and used by the whole family, so a lot of it is just shot by children. And they’re way more kinetic, it’s way more fun. Uh, there’s far less for me to do with it. Because it’s already good, it’s already golden. Me destroying, like, some work a child made is just nothing. There’s no narrative in that, you know? So, like, you get some really interesting stuff, so it’s trying to get that, and then see what narratives you can create. The deeper, deeper stuff you find, the more interesting stuff you find, you know? Yeah, like, it’s, every single box should be like a nice little, uh, exploration, like a little treasure hunt, you know, you’re trying to find gems. If you’re lucky you get the other footage from the grassy knoll of the JFK shooting, that’s the, like, holy grail of it. If I find it, I’ll be very happy. I’ll make some I’ll make something really fucked up about it. But yeah, like, the whole process of finding it is interesting, uh, in and of itself. 

LEO: I would, I would like to learn more about destroying film. Um, so if there’s any workshops soon, I’m going to be joining up. I’m just going to be rocking up and learning because I find it very fascinating and I find it very fascinating in the sense of like each people will choose how to destroy film a different way I suppose and what to destroy and how to create something new out of it. Um, I’ve noticed that when you destroy film you scratch out faces quite a bit. There’s like a theme of identity erasure in a way. I would like to hear more about the film you made called They Will Bury Us in Code, where it’s just like a series of people and faces and facial features are scratched out.

AUTOJEKTOR: That one, They Will Bury Us in Code, is like the digital version of that. So, that’s the one that’s all deep faked footage. So, that one has not actually been touched by human hands at all. So, that film was sort of like an experiment in… again, like, yeah, most, all of my analogue work is somewhat about destruction, destruction of format, and what the actual erasure of physical film, physical items, and, like, that style of image, unique images, what that means, and what narratives can be created out of it. So, trying to move that into a purely digital realm is what, um, They Will Bury Us in Code is about. So, all the footage is not… is duplicated, which is like the interesting thing, the main difference about analogue to digital is the way that it can be duplicated, and over and over and over. Physical piece of film, in order to be spread to millions, billions of people over the internet, will have to be duplicated, like, digitally. And then it can be screened to anyone, everywhere. So the destruction of one copy of that is not… doesn’t do anything, you know, like I could print it off and destroy it or whatever or print it off. However, you could do that. But there’s no way you can destroy digital footage in the same way you can destroy one off analogue footage, which is sort of like, again, it’s sort of like the way digital information works, you can’t just delete a post and expect it to be deleted, it will always exist on the internet, it will always exist digitally. So, this was how do you destroy an item where there is potentially an infinite amount of copies. Um, how do you erase something where there is already so much of it? So, with that film, essentially what is happening is, is a series of, um, faces where the same footage, where different faces has been posted over the top of the original face. All of the images are AI generated. Not the background footage, not the actual home movies that is, again, being destroyed, but the, every single face that goes over the top is AI generated, and they change at such a rapid succession that you… the original is just lost. The truth is that in that film, none of the faces were original faces. And, again, through the repetition, through the constant overbearing amount of information that is thrown at you, the whole idea is that the original, it becomes unnecessary, it becomes pointless, it becomes… There’s no value to it because there is so much information thrown up. It’s like drowning in information. It’s like the actual erasure happens because there is so much information that the original does not… there is no need for the original anymore. It becomes, um, just absolutely pointless. So, that like, it’s again, like the idea of, uh, like information and inflation. Again, like in the digital age, like with everything being online, there is so much information out there that it does become pointless. Like again, the whole argument was like the topic of fake news. There’s so much information out there. News is what people want it to be. So information, again, is the same thing. You can believe what you want because there is so much out there. And then that’s how you actually erase information. That’s how you erase people in the digital age, it’s just by providing so much information that nobody cares to look up the original. And so that was the basic idea behind that one. Which is why moving into digital is, I find, very exciting. Because it’s, how do you destroy it? It’s like, how do you destroy something where there is potentially billions of versions out there that everyone is able to access? 

LEO: Because there’s, there’s always going to be an original copy somewhere.

AUTOJEKTOR: Yeah, it is, but those ones, if you really care, I mean, it’ll just be another face to you, you’re not gonna know, but if you care, they’re in, uh, archive.org. If you want to put the work in, you can go find the originals, but nobody’s gonna want to, because it’s not… there’s, I don’t know, there’s nothing to it, it’s just another face, unless you know the people. So it’s kind of interesting. 

INDIGO: That is fascinating. Just like, listening to you talk about it was amazing. Um, and I know you’ve been touching upon digital work more recently, like you said. Um, and I remember that I watched your film Robyn at Alchemy Film and Movie Image Festival, Um, where I met you and It is actually yourself who’s getting, like, your face distorted. How did you come to make the film, and what was the process like?

AUTOJEKTOR: This one was an interesting one, because this one is, like, more experiment than concept. So, it’s originally playing around with facial recognition software. I find, like, the easiest way to do any, like, artwork tool is just through total play. So, like, again, like… the last film was just through playing around with deepfake software, and then just being like, okay, so, you know, let’s do AI generated faces, let’s play around with that, let’s play around with this. And then Robyn was 100 percent just first time playing with deepfake, um, software. And what I was originally finding interesting is just layering up face upon face upon face, until it got to the point where the AI could not recognize faces anymore. So, it gets to the point where it kept on getting confused and confused. And so, like, the main motif within Robyn is sort of, like, distortion of, like, my physical face in order to confuse and create an uncanny face for the recognition algorithm, facial recognition algorithm to not really know what it’s doing. So like, I’ll start painting it up, like, I will distort it with like, tape, start moving my face around physically, and the AI algorithm is trying… algorithm? Well the, the actual like, program itself is struggling to put a face back onto that human face. It is struggling to like, understand what it’s looking at. So it’s that kind of, like, uncanniness from where we know there’s a face, the computer, like, knows there’s a face, but nobody’s really recognising it. But it’s like, I don’t know, with the facial recognition software, it’s interesting to have that binary, binary of this is a face, that’s not a face. And it can only do one on the other. You feed a load of information into a database, then it goes, it tries to replicate it. It’s more mimicry, it’s more like, uh, how, like, chimpanzees talk. They’re not really intelligent in the same way that humans are, they’re just mimicking stuff to get a result. But it’s like, The way that programs try to analyse faces, and they just go, yes face, no face. And that’s kind of more or less what I’m playing around with in that. And so, for using like, face paint, for using whatever, it’s just going, can you see a face yet? Because to us, it’s the most recognizable thing. We’ll see faces in absolutely anything. Computers will see it every now and then. And it’s just sort of like, it was more interesting trying to figure out where the boundary is and pushing that and creating something just, not overly complicated, but something quite visually interesting, just out of that question, and like, out of that little, um, back and forth with the computer, basically. 

INDIGO: Yeah. And how do you find digital distortion differently to, like, when compared to physically, like, scratching the film?

AUTOJEKTOR: Oh, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re just totally, two totally different things. There is just… not the same thing, like, like, physically, because I quite like thinking about the analogue stuff. It’s still glitching in the same way. It’s still, like, pushing the parameters. Again, if you think of, like, computer code as the same way as like the actual analogue frame as the actual real, you’re still pushing the parameters so it can still work, it can still be viewed, it can still go through a projector. So, it’s like with the analogue stuff you’re burning, it’s like down to like molecules, it’s down to like the crystals that are in the film, so you’re distorting it on that level, so you get like… Again, you can paint on it, you’re melting it, as long as it can go through it, it works, but then digitally it’s the same thing. You can’t do the same physical thing, you can’t target, you can target a face a little bit, but you can’t target it in the same way. You can target the code, you can target, like, everything else around it, so the actual physical structure that I would be, like, destroying. Because I played around with data bending as well in another music video. And, again, you’re going into the actual code of the file and doing it that way, and analogue wise, you’re, it’s the same thing, like, but the outcomes are two totally different things. And so, like, there’s not really, like, a favourite. Digital, if I fuck around too much, I can come back, I can undo, you know. Which is also kind of a thing that I find not as, makes it not as valuable. I kind of like the idea of when I’m doing the analogue destruction, if I go too far, and I destroy a piece of footage, there’s so much really good stuff that I’ve lost. Like, just because I buried it in like, whatever, and I’ve left it for too long. Like, buried it in bleach. I’ve got other films that I buried in raw meat and just allowed the actual, the fungus that develops on mold to eat away at the film and just left it too long and it’s totally destroyed. And the analogue version, you can’t just delete that, you can’t do undo, you haven’t got the original. So, I don’t know, there’s more fun in that process. And I think more people enjoy the behind the scenes of that as well and sort of like the actual filmmaking, physical filmmaking of that compared to the digital. But I think the digital stuff is again, it’s more, like, relevant to how we actually exist with media and how we actually exist with what film will become. And especially with like, the amount of stuff that gets created now is just constant. So, like every like millisecond, there’s like hundred new things, like, thousands of new things being created every second. And so, like, the digital aspect and the digital aspect of the destruction is super interesting in a conceptual way. But then the analogue is really interesting on just, like, a visceral way. But that’s why I really like mixing the two at the same time. Like, you can get both in there. And the results are just interesting. Yeah, you get a lot out of both. 

LEO: When I watched Robyn and you were distorting your face by making gestures and by opening up your mouth and like showing, baring your teeth and then the digital face would, like, hop back on and it would be like a pouty little sweet mouth. And like, the juxtaposition is very, like, wild. But obviously like you get a choice to go back there that you wouldn’t get. And I just find that very fascinating because with analogue I suppose you have to be more on top of it if you want to attain the specific results and not let it go too far or not cut it too short. That’s, that’s very wild. Um, I mostly work with digital, so it is very cool to me to hear that you can just leave film under like a pile of meat and see what happens. That’s just, that’s just wild. 

AUTOJEKTOR: You can do the same with a USB drive, like, it won’t destroy it in the same way, but, like, when the actual physical housing of the memory stick, or the memory, can be distorted, you’ll get something. You’ll get something interesting out of it. The file gets deleted and it needs to be recovered. You’ll get, like, these digital remnants, you’ll get this digital corpse back of it. I know there was one artist, she lost her laptop or something, all the digital files on there. The laptop got found, it had been deleted, it had been, like, resold, and so she, like, I have no idea what her name is, like, will not be able to remember. But then, like, when they recovered the files, she just exhibited that, just the recovered files, and it’s sort of like, you know, to me, that’s more interesting than what the original work would have been. I don’t know, I think mentally, if you just think about the two actually being a lot more similar, you can get some interesting results, you can get some really interesting stuff out of it.

LEO: I’ve, I’ve remembered the title of the music video that I was thinking about earlier. It’s This Should… This Should Hurt a Little Bit by Retox. I really enjoyed that one, uh, when I was, um, scouring through your, your website. I was just having my little raccoon moment, just going through everything. But I really enjoyed that one.

AUTOJEKTOR: No, that was a really, that was a really fun one to do. That was the, that was, I mean, I count that as like the first proper film I did, did under the, the name Autojektor. I did one more before that. There was more of a test run. No idea what I was doing, just kind of like had this footage and just went for it. But that one was very fun. So yeah, it was with the band Retox. Lead singer, um, Justin Pearson, like, big fan of him for a very long time. Huge in the 90s. With his band The Locust and his record label 31G. So like, working with, like, just going to meet him and him just being like, yeah, do what the fuck you want. I’m like, okay, that’s rad. And then like, so with that film, that was the first one where it’s kind of like, okay, let’s try and have an idea here. So, one of my favourite films of all time is Eyes Without a Face. It’s the old 1960s, uh, French horror movie about a woman who gets her face removed. All of my films are about destruction of faces. You can chat about that, it’s fine. They all are. They’re all going to be. So it’s kind of like, the imagery based from that. And like, the whole film is just covered in blood. That’s it. Like, that’s your main, the main um, aesthetic is just, there’s bleed all over this. And that’s kind of it. That’s, the aesthetic is, like, let’s copy that film in this medium, in found footage, analogue destruction. And the only way I could think about doing that was just bleeding all over it. So, I’ve got a lot of, a lot of time for that film. And the way blood looks under a projector is incredible. Like, it, it will, like, congeal, it will scab, it doesn’t, like, because it’s, like, living. It, like, moves as well, and the way it sits is incredible, and the way that, like, I don’t know, ink doesn’t do the same thing. I haven’t seen any other material. Yeah, there’s no other material that paints in the same way, but then also it’s a nice little, like, sacrificial gesture. Because it’s like, sweet, okay, so I’m destroying this body, have this little bit of me back. I mean, I don’t know, I don’t know, painting with blood’s kind of fun, but there’s only so much of it you can do, before it just starts hurting, to be perfectly honest. After a while, like, the cuts, you’ll do it, nothing comes out. But you now see a bit, like, going like, am I done for the day? I’ve done like eight hours of this. Because frame by frame is long, regardless of what you’re doing with it. And so, like, just after eight hours, I’m like, I just literally can’t bleed anymore. Like, unless I really cut something dangerous, like, I’m not gonna be able to get any more out of this. 

LEO: Wow. I didn’t, I didn’t know that, but that makes me like the film. Quite a bit more actually because that’s wild. I really enjoyed the pacing of it with the song and the look and the feel of it feels very visceral to me for some reason and yeah, that just makes it click more into place. I love that. So yeah, you’ve made video clips for music that other people have done. But how about the music you’ve made for your own films, because I’ve also found that the, the films I’ve seen that aren’t necessarily a music video you’ve done for somebody else, the music and the sound matches very interestingly. Um, one of the ones I can think of is Basilisk. Did you make the sound for that as well?

AUTOJEKTOR: Yes, so Basilisk was one of the simple ones. It was essentially, it was a film that I shot in the Black Forest in Germany, which is just go there. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. Go there, get lost in those woods. Don’t get too lost, otherwise it’s difficult to find your way out, but it’s fun doing that, anyway. Basilisk was more of essentially, it was trying to put my experience of getting lost in those woods, which are famously where, like, all the Grimm’s fairy tales are written about. That’s where they were like, yeah. It’s where the Grimm’s, Grimm Brothers, Brothers Grimm actually just came up with all of their stories. So Hansel and Gretel is based there. And then like the actual folklore, like the mythology around the place is gorgeous. And it’s 100%, it makes sense. Like you go there and you understand why kids are getting lost. You understand why there’s witches in there. You understand, like, all the folk all around the area. And so it’s more just encompassing that through my lens into a film. So, essentially we had, it was just kind of like, the most remote part when I felt the most, like, humbly on edge. It’s probably the best way to, like, talk about what it was like when I was really enjoying those woods. Just very chill, very relaxed, but kind of extremely tense, and just out of my element. So, more or less a field recording, like a heavily distorted field recording for that one. And it was just trying to like, use the idea, the concept of the monster, the Basilisk, in order to turn those woods into a film, to sort of like, humanise it, anthropomorphize it. And again, that’s what the sound was. It was taking the raw footage in the same way that the film is the raw footage from the woods, and then humanly distorting it to create this film. Essentially the same thing with the sound. It’s quite simple, quite easy. But just, when I was in the right place, took a footage. When I was in the right place, well, took a shot. And when I was in the right place, took a sound clip. And then just sort of like naturally just feeling what felt best. It was a nice one. I like how it came along. 

LEO: I enjoyed that one a lot. I think we’re going to chat about it a bit more later, but yeah, it’s, I think, I think the, from the films that you sent us and from the ones on your website, I just found it very fascinating because there’s a feeling of unsettling to some of them and I feel like it’s very hard to match that feeling with sound sometimes. Like, people will try to make sound feel unsettling and it just comes out a bit silly, but I felt unsettled by Basilisk. I really did, so it was yeah…

AUTOJEKTOR: I mean one of my favorite things is clipping, like I love it when the sound starts fucking with your speakers like that little push outside of, like, the world of the film where it is actively, like, hurting your speakers, where it’s actively pushing those speakers physically. And when it starts, like, pushing at that red limit, that’s what I really enjoy with sound. Those bits really just, that little push out of the fourth wall. Which is, again, one of those things that, I mean, it’s almost impossible to do that over, like, the internet on a screen, but with sound it’s so easy. Like, those little bits that kind of, like, drag people out of the film, but still, like, hurt. Like, you go in with the bass going super low, right speakers go straight into the body. Clipping, it’ll just make you, done at the right time, it’ll just make you tick, it’ll, like, just hit you really badly, like, right in your ear when, like, sound clips in that way. And it’s just, I like, I love it. I love that. Yeah.

INDIGO: And, and on the topic of sound as well, like, um, we’re now going to discuss your film, Everything is ok | an ASMR to help you sleep at night. So through this film you’ll touch upon themes of trans identity, fetishization, and the demonising of the other. How is the process of writing the script to match the YouTube ASMR style with an unsettling twist?

AUTOJEKTOR: I mean, like, again, most of my films start with the footage. So, it’s always just… I mean, if I… Because the fundamental imagery of that is destroyed trans porn. And that was just for a really good find. So, I managed to get, like, six of these old 1970s, um, Kim Christy movies. Uh, from a series called She-Male Encounters. And the logo is phenomenal. The S is like the balls. And then like the E makes the head of a penis. And it’s, it’s an incredible piece of graphic design. But it’s really interesting. So, like, I managed to find these films. And so I’m like, okay. So what is, what does it mean to destroy this imagery? Because again, it’s always just sort of like, if you destroy images in a certain way, it can’t just be the same thing every time, otherwise it becomes redundant. So, it is again, like, what does, the narrative of this destruction want? What does it mean to do this? And so, like, again, with trans porn, it’s kind of, like, fairly obvious, like, where you’re going to go with that destruction of any image of a sex worker. In that kind of way, anything about the destruction of the face is, again, like, an objectification. It’s a dehumanisation. But then with the porn focusing on, like, those body parts, on, like, those actions and what the actual intent of pornography is, that’s just what happens when you destroy those kind of images. Again, it does, it’s objectification, it’s about destruction of identity, but still the gratifying nature of experience, experiencing porn. So again, that’s how it goes into the trans mode, where it’s just kind of like, it’s the… it’s the kind of, like, exploitation of, it’s the destruction of the identity, but the exploitation of the action. So, which is 100 percent kind of, you know, what trans people are experiencing at the moment. It’s kind of like, we can, our identities are destroyed. Like, you know, if, when one of us is murdered, then it will go into the newspapers, and there’ll be misgendering. There’ll be, like, deadnaming. There’ll be this, there’ll be this. But on the other side, there’ll also be extra funding put into places. And there’s no legalities going into it. There’s no changes in law. The culture doesn’t change. It’s still just exploitation and dehumanisation at the same time. So it’s like those look, so when I’m talking about fetishization, I hate using that word, but that’s the word that is, that’s the word that is needed to be used, and demonization at the same time. I mean, there’s no other way to get around, to get around those issues when creating that film. And so, when coming to the sound of it, it was more or less the same. It’s like, how do we do something that is really degrading, that is really dehumanising, that is really fake, but is still getting along that level of anger, but that level of comfort that people are able to do. So again, it’s like, you’re able to sit at home and, and it’s the typical transphobe thing, like, there’s not, it’s not like that level of violence where you’re going out and like, you know, full on murdering people, you know, you’re not like lynching anyone or anything, but you can sit behind a keyboard and you can promote really disgusting ideologies and still go to bed and sleep thinking you’ve done something nice. You’ve done something good, you’re helping out, you’re, you know, you’re targeting people, people are getting murdered, and you’re still like, well, I saved some kids today. It’s like, you didn’t, you just, you just contributed to somebody getting killed. So it’s like, that’s the, that’s the, the title is an ASMR to help you sleep at night, and that’s why it’s just, everything’s okay. It’s not you. Everything’s okay. And it’s like, it’s not. But again, this is like the typical, like, like neoliberal, liberal mentality. It’s like, we’ll give them a fucking parade, and that’s it. We don’t have to do anything else after that. We can sleep at night now, because we have done bare minimum. So yeah, that’s how the ASMR part got in there. And then that mixed in with, like, sexual nature of the footage in and of itself. That just comes quite naturally, that just fits in together. I feel like, script wise, of, like, the actual words, because I’ve, that’s the first time I’ve written, like, words. Like, all my other films are silent. Like, on purpose, like, I’m not really that much of a fan of dialogue anyway, and it’s nicer to be able to show them, like, to non-English speaking people, and just be like, enjoy it in the exact same way. But I do feel like that was a little bit pulling, like holding back, like I’ve pulled a lot of punches when it could have just kept going a lot stronger and a lot more aggressively. But um, that might be just a re-edit or something at some point, you know, when I’m more like, when I’m more in the mind frame of going back and like, having a look back on older stuff, I might, you know get a little bit more angry with it, you know/

INDIGO: And how do you find working with trans porn?

AUTOJEKTOR: Oh, it’s interesting. It’s weird because now I know so much. It’s become like a really interesting thing because again, it’s sort of like I mean especially for trans femmes, like, that’s where most of our history is, like, in terms of, in terms of recorded media. And, but the interesting thing is sort of like, the person, well, woman person, like, it’s very interesting, the producer of this line of pornography is a person called Kim Christy, who at the time was, gender wise, anyone that’s heard of her, no idea. Like, a female impersonator who was going by she, she pronouns, she, her pronouns at the time was at least working as a woman. And, but, it’s, it’s, it’s complicated. It’s back in like the 70s, 60s she really started modelling. And she started becoming an editor, and then became a porn producer as well. So like, all of these films are made by, um, gender non conforming people. So it’s really interesting the further you get into it. Obviously the audience is not. But again, it’s one of those ones where in order to make money, you have, like, a product that is, like, fetishizing and objectifying a group, whilst also being the only way to learn about that group. So the people, trans people at the time, especially her magazines, are full of really good representation. The film’s not so much, I mean they’re fine, they’re just standard porn movies, they’re not really, you’re not getting anything interesting out of them, but the magazines she was editing at the time, there’s a lot of very interesting, very political, very angry shit in some of them. Like, a lot of the opinion pieces are incredibly interesting. So, through working with trans porn, you just learn a lot more about how fucking rad we are, basically.

INDIGO: And how difficult is it to find that sort of footage?

AUTOJEKTOR: That footage is very difficult. It was very much uh, luck that I managed to get 8 reels of 8mm. Like, in, like, the packaging, still got all the packaging and stuff, if you’re a collector, it’s fine, I mean, I’ve already destroyed all the footage, so. But again, there’s digital versions of it, so it doesn’t matter. I mean, they were duplicates anyway, they’re not, none of this stuff’s the original stuff, it’s all made to be, uh, bought, it’s all a product, essentially. So the destruction of it is absolutely fine. Trying to find the actual reels is quite difficult. I mean, if you want to spend the money, you can, but it’s not really worth it. It’s all up on the internet already. So, um, but yeah, it’s again, it’s just constantly hunting. It’s like checking at eBay every day. It’s like, again, going online, you find other websites that are like eBay. The one I was talking about Japanese footage earlier, there’s a really good one that I use. I haven’t used it in like two years or so, but it was Rinkya, R A N K Y A. And, um, again, it’s just eBay, but for stuff from Japan, and you just pick up a little bit of the language, and it’s easier to search that way. Like, yeah. So it’s a difficult find. If you’re looking for something specific, you’re probably not going to find it. You have to be very open to the style of footage you’re going to get and be fluid about what you’re going to make. So again, when I’m looking for footage, I got zero idea. It’s just I’m in the mood to make something, let’s buy something and see what comes from that. So basically, you can make a magazine that is talking about trans issues, but again, for the, it’s still, like, there’s still those bits in there, but it’s still porn that’s made for, like, cis straight men in order to masturbate to. You know, or, like, you have the cross dressing ones, which is, again, totally different, but back in those days, like, they were more or less one and the same thing. So you can get little bits from that, little bits from this. Anything transmasc, again, is just… just, it’s, like, trying to find anything transmasc, like, same thing as trying to find anything, like, lesbian history as well, they all get interwoven. Because, again, like, if you look at old obituaries, if you go on the Digital Trans Archives, and you try and do any research, like, it’s just, sometimes it’s just a cis woman that wanted to work, dressing up as a man and living as a man, and that’s it. So like, again, like when it’s looking into any queer history, it’s who are the people creating it, who are the eyes consuming it. And so it’s impossible to really get anything that clear, anything that good. It just sucks. It’s a lot of work really trying to go through it. 

INDIGO: And also, like, not only who created it, but also who’s archiving it and how they’re archiving it. Um, I really like the Digital Trans Archive. I think they’re doing great work, like.

AUTOJEKTOR: Oh yeah, 100%. But again, a lot of, a lot of the stuff they’ve got. So they’ve got a lot of the magazine Female Mimics, which is Kim Christy’s magazine. So there is a lot, it’s a lot of everything really, there’s some stuff that’s really helpful, some stuff that’s pretty bad, there’s some stuff that’s just kind of neutral. But it’s again, same with any other history. It’s just, I mean, it’s just a small part of it, you’re not getting all of, like, the trans history through porn. But there is definitely an interesting thing there that can be explored. 

LEO: Am I right about this? So, I think I saw on your Instagram that you made merch for this film.

AUTOJEKTOR: Yeah.

LEO: Can you tell us about that? 

AUTOJEKTOR: I did a swimsuit for it. I just kind of bored, I found, like, when I found out you can just print merch I was like alright, fuck it, let’s have a go! I did some t-shirts as well, that are really gross, really disgusting, nobody was ever gonna buy them, and it’s fine. I moved a couple of the swimsuits. But yeah, that was just, just a bit of fun. I like them, they’re very nice. I’m looking at it now, it’s a very good swimsuit. 

INDIGO: Yeah, I love that we went to Camp Trans together, and you went to the lake wearing your own merch.

AUTOJEKTOR: Why would I not? It’s really good. It’s really good. 

INDIGO: Exactly!

AUTOJEKTOR: I’m gonna plug that at the end of this, by the way. I am plugging my merch. 

LEO: I just, I think as I had seen that, and I thought it was the, the merch for it, that it was the swimsuit, I was like, what an interesting choice of piece of, like, wear to make merch off. You know, like, you’d think promotional items of clothing would be hats and, and t-shirts, hoodies, maybe like a bracelet or something, and I was like, swimsuit feels like, so refreshing for some reason, literally.

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s like, everyone’s got a t-shirt, it’s like, I don’t need to do a tote bag, do I? Most of my tote bags are tea towels at this point. I don’t want to be a tea towel. If, unless I did want to make a tea towel, I would make a tea towel on its own. But it’s just like, yeah, I’ll do a swimsuit. That’s rad. That’s really cool. Also, it’s just a nice little juxtaposition because it’s like, just a big gross face on the front and then right on the arse it says everything is okay. It’s got, it’s got nothing to do with it. It doesn’t matter. Don’t overthink it. It’s, it’s just good. 

LEO: It’s just good. It’s just so good. We’re gonna get chatting about writing, about your own artistic practice. So, I read the article that you wrote for Moving Image Artists, which was an article about Basilisk. Um, and there were some really good quotes from it that I enjoyed, uh, because you were discussing about the concept of monsters as basic cultural concepts of fears. Um, but also, there was this one quote that basically reads, “My idea was to produce a film that would physically harm its viewer”. And then you had some musings about how you can’t quite achieve that in a traditional setting of a screening. But I thought, I thought it was very interesting because obviously you talked about how you were in the forest, getting lost, basically putting yourself in this stress situation for the sake of the film and what you were developing. But then you can’t quite translate that to a little screening room. And the viewers are maybe gonna feel unsettled by the film, but not quite. So, I thought it was a very interesting read. How did you approach writing about it?

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s, it’s difficult because it’s like, I was very happy with how that piece came out. Because I’ve tried writing about my work before and because it’s… And it’s difficult because you, like, basically get into the headspace where you come up with the idea, then create it, and then like a year later or something you have to deconstruct everything that you did and be like, by that point you’re just like, I just made a thing. A bit it’s like that’s it’s not how it works but by that point you’re kind of like that’s where your brain lives at so at least with that one there was a whole, at least there was an experience around it again like when I talked about uh this will hurt a little bit, i’m just like I just bled on it. Because that was kind of what it was but this there was far more of like a story and a narrative around it. Like I was reading, like, I’m very much into monsters. I really like the anthropology of monsters. Like, again, I started off being really into horror movies as a kid. I got into that because I was really into Greek myths that got me into Ray Harryhausen that carried me on into film. So, fundamentally, what got me into film is, like, folklore and monsters and everything. So I was reading, um, this book about hermetic magic at the time and alchemy. And there was this really interesting thing they had called animal riddles, where essentially that monsters were a way of signifying, like, alchemic, like, practices and magic spells. Like, they got one which is the Green Lion, which is essentially the chemical process that the Green Lion represents is the oxidization of gold. So like it oxidises, it turns green. Lion is gold. Symbol of the symbol of gold is the lion or the sun, yada, yada, yada. And so they were going on about the basilisk in this one particular book. So I’m like, okay, that’s, that’s super interesting. And so the basilisk is like parts frog, part chicken, it turns people to stone. Like turning to stone with, uh, observation of it is, like, again, something that is passed on through multiple monsters. Again, you’ve got Medusa, which is a famous one. And so, like, bringing all of those concepts, and instead of turning it into, like, a chemical process, I was like, let’s turn it into a cinematic process. And so, like, every part of that film was trying to turn that level of petrification, like, that idea that this is part something, part something else that shouldn’t be together. And turning and trying to create that outcome, like that actual harming through, uh, through seeing, through looking, uh, was the main idea behind it. So, when I got to that idea, like, I can do, you know, I don’t want to exploit flashing images, but essentially if you do want to cause physical harm to people, that’s the easiest one. It’s too easy, it’s low hanging fruit anyway, so I’m not that into it. So yeah, that’s when I got to the point where I’m like, it needs to expand outside of the cinematic screen in order for me to feel like the film’s done what it needs to do. Because like, aesthetically, love it. It looks great. It’s got a big eye going throughout the whole thing. It’s 40 seconds of technically, I don’t know, it’s not technically one shot, it’s over a thousand shots in that 40 second film. But like, just that level of just constant battering of just brutal levels of constant information and one focal point. Aesthetically, it does have that effect, but it’s not, it’s not hitting everyone in the same way that I would like. So when I was like, yeah, it needs to move outside the cinematic screen, that’s kind of just where it came from. Nobody was getting injured from just watching the film, basically. 

LEO: Yeah, is, is writing about your own practice, something that you do often, because we found a couple other places you’ve written, but is it something that you do when requested, or?

AUTOJEKTOR: I keep trying it, because I’m like, this is fun, there is something interesting about it, because I’m not, I’m not too into words as a medium. I’ve had, like, I’m trying to experiment with it, so just the actual use of language in that way, again, language doesn’t really come up in my films, well, like, spoken and written language. So, I’m interested in exploring it and just writing about my work I thought would be the easiest way. So like, I’ve done some bits for the Analogue Cookbook. It’s like a camera-less filmmaking magazine. So it’s like, okay, so let’s do it really just, um, no fancy language, just be really just like scientific with this. It’s like you put that there, step one, you do that, step two, this is the outcome, step three. But then, I don’t know, the first bits I did for that were kind of like that, and it was like, okay, that’s kind of interesting. And then the last one I just put in is essentially a poem. Because I was like, okay, well, let’s try doing it this way. Because again, if me writing about the film isn’t having the same impact as the film itself, then what’s the point in the writing about the film apart from just an advert? Because otherwise, then I might as well put a QR code or something and just be like… there you go, that’s, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the written form of the film, it’s a QR code, it’s a QR link to the film, you know? Uh, so it’s interesting, it’s difficult, I don’t know how I feel about it yet, but I’m gonna keep trying, and I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t focus on, yeah, it wouldn’t be what I’d tell people to do first off. I mean, I watch the films first and then see if you get anything else out of it. 

INDIGO: I mean, I guess you’ll answer my next question about the Analogue Cookbook.

AUTOJEKTOR: No, there’s other little bits because I’ve been with that. I did, I remember when the first one came out because there wasn’t that much about it. There’s like a couple other PDFs out there, which sadly I’ve forgotten the names of right now, which is about, again, cameraless filmmaking. So there’s a couple more out there, but that was about it. So when this, the first open call came to this out, I’m like, sweet, I’ll just get involved with it, I’ll do this. And then they’ve got issue seven out just came out recently and that’s the newest one I’m in and that’s got work from, that’s got more, a little bit more of an in depth writing about everything is okay in there. Yeah, so I’ve done with three issues for that. Maybe issue number one, issue number two, then a big stint where I was like playing around with digital. So I’m like, I’ve got nothing for you right now. I’m just playing with digital. I’m sorry, I got literally nothing to talk about. But no, so it’s a really interesting publication. So it’s all full of just like, just a load of different artists, just here’s some stuff like really interesting and but yes, focusing on one type of filmmaking, which is again, like a super niche style of filmmaking, but it’s very cheap. It’s very, I don’t know. I’d say it’s like the most, um, physically understandable. It’s like the least abstract form of filmmaking because it’s just, you can see it, it goes on screen, that’s it. So it’s a very underutilised, um, style of filmmaking. Or at least like, it… everyone should at least have a go at it, I think. It’s one of those kinds. Everyone should at least be able to understand that. So at least when you’re working digitally and it’s really abstract, it’s in Adobe Premiere or Final Cut. You can then, like, see it and you understand why it looks like that. 

INDIGO: Yeah, I would love to play around with analogue film more than what I’ve done in the past. And, yeah, I learned about the Analogue Cookbook with Hogan Seidel. And, yeah, I might get the, the newest issue. 

LEO: You have this Instagram account called Roe Darling Digital Archives, which you’ve made to become a growing digital image archive dedicated to salvaging and preserving images of nameless everyday people otherwise forgotten. What prompted you to share these portraits that have been left behind?

AUTOJEKTOR: Whenever you buy film, there’s just always, like, just leftovers in there. There’s a bit of everything. Especially if it’s just somebody’s, like, family member and they’re selling it, it’s like, here’s some photos as well. So I managed to amass like a lot of these, like the archive now is just under a hundred images. And I’m like, hey, these are kind of interesting, but like, never had any idea what I could do with them. Like when I’ve had like 35mm still slides, it’s like, cool, I can just do the same thing, but it’s a still image, you know? But when it’s the photographs, it’s like, what can I do with this? And again, like the actual archives are a light, it’s like kind of like a, a fake archive. Because, again, the idea of destruction is still in this, like, it’s masquerading as a real archive, but essentially, it’s like the archive version, well, the Roe Darling archives came before the, um, film This Is How They’ll Bury Us, which is again, deepfake technology, and it is about erasure through just total, uh, overabundance of information. The Roe Darling Archives are a fake archive of real photographs that have been deepfaked over with AI generated faces in the same way, but it’s masquerading as a real archive. In order, and that’s the style of erasure that I am using for that piece. So it is just sort of like the proper like Zimbardo project, like what is it like with just somebody in a white coat tells you this is a real archive. And it stands there with all the other archives, it’s just as interesting, it’s just as true. Because again, like, the actual individuals in there, like, to everyone else it doesn’t matter. It’s like a really interesting thing, it’s one of those styles of erasure where it’s kind of like, the actual person is gone, and like the physicals I’ve, uh, I’ve just had an exhibition where all the original physical ones are just, like, shoved a load of nails through all the faces, and we nailed them up to a wall, um, with the digital versions next to it, and it’s kind of like the putting visible violence and invisible violence next to each other, and it’s sort of like thinking about like visible violence as being this really terrible thing, but at least you understand that there’s loss when you see one photo of nails to it next to one that seems undamaged, but the actual undamaged one, the person’s been totally erased. But because we don’t see the violence, you just take it to be true, and you take that to be the original image. And so the archives is just that. It’s just, what if this erasure is just totally invisible? So, none of the photos look like they’ve been tampered with. But none of those people are real. None of those people exist. None of those people have existed. And everyone who was in those photos is now, if it was their last photo, that was their last photo, and they now, there is no footage left of them. So that’s kind of like the slow horror movie that it is the Roe Darling Archives. 

LEO: I took it very literally and I generally thought those were real photos when I first saw it.

AUTOJEKTOR: That’s the fun bit, it’s like, I get a few people, I had one person go like, hey, that’s my grandma on one of the pictures. One, I’m just like, laughing, I’m like, it’s not. Two, like, they didn’t even ask for the picture back. They’re like, gimme, I’d be like, if I did, if I was on archives, like, that’s my family. I’m like, give me that back, that’s mine. Like, that’s, he’s just like, oh, that’s hilarious. I’m like, oh, poor baby, it’s not. It doesn’t get promoted in that way, it’s just because that’s, yeah, it’s all about, like, invisible erasure. It’s all about, which I find is far more violent. Again, like, talking about, like, what happens to trans people in media? What happens when we’re deadnamed? What happens, like, again, when one of us is murdered and it goes into the newspaper and it’s deadnaming? And everyone else just will read the newspaper and just be like, oh, that’s just somebody who got murdered. It’s like, no, that was actually somebody of a different gender who got murdered, and you’ve totally erased their whole identity. But unless you, you already know, you’re willing to do the work, or you’re sceptical enough to just be like, I need to look into this. Again, just, information can be totally erased by just, not even apathy, but it’s just like, why would you bother checking? Again, like, you thought the archives are real, why wouldn’t you? Even though all my other work’s about destruction, why would you, why would you believe this one would be as well? It’s, yeah, it’s just interesting, just full on masquerading as truth, and it works. 

LEO: It does. It fooled me, so… and it’s, it’s fooling people left and right if this person believed that was their grandma, so…

AUTOJEKTOR: Like, I get a few people from, like, the Autojektor, like, my, like, who follow me there, like, going over, but most of them are not interested because they’re not… they like my work from the destruction angle, so they’ll see that and be like, nah, it’s not, I’m not into, into an archive. But most of the people following me are other archives. So there’s like this weird thing where it’s just only archivists looking at each other’s images. No interaction. Nobody’s really liking anyone’s images. But you just go, oh sweet, that’s another archive. I’ll follow them. So it’s a really extra layer of, I don’t think anyone looks at these photos. I don’t think anyone cares about these images anyway. So it’s kind of like, I view it like, again, like even when I’m destroying them, like, I feel like nobody was looking at them anyway. Family members have sold images of their, like, loved ones for whatever reason. I don’t I wouldn’t do it, but people do it. And, like, they wouldn’t be seen. Like, even the ones that are on digital archives, like, they’ve been up there ten years with, like, ten views. And 8 of them have been me just double checking if there’s any good footage in them and going, no, there isn’t. There’s nothing interesting in here. So it’s like, again, these images are not getting viewed, but then, like, as soon as you destroy them, it gives them value, you go like, oh, that could have been something beautiful, it’s like, no, well, I don’t think there was. I think maybe real archivists might think there was something good in them. But then it’s also like, what images are, like, worth anything? What is an image worth anyway? And like, do you have to know the person for it to be interesting, or, or not, like? I don’t know. It’s just actually putting the value on images, and like, how much would something like this cost? Because really, none of it, I mean, it’s kind of like, like selling land or something, like, it doesn’t, you can’t really own an image of someone. But as we do know now, and with like, way, like copyright strikes work. Is you can own an image of someone, and again with the AI face generated one, let’s say, because you can, with the face generation apps, you can buy the app in order to use the AI generated face under, like, Creative Commons, like, the thing, so you can own that AI generated face, but let’s say it generated a face that looked identically like one of yours. And then I used it for whatever I wanted to use it for, then who owns that? It’s terrifying. Yeah, it’s terrifying. So it’s like, and then by that point, if I’ve just bought a photograph of someone, do I own that specific image? Can I use the image on that, and then start deepfaking that face around because I own that current image? And then like, what rights does that give me as the owner of a particular image to do what I want with it? So again, I’ll be going on destroying stuff for years. There’s a lot of interesting things I can do with this that I’m very excited about. 

INDIGO: I’m excited to see your future work. Yeah, and also, I just wanted to ask in terms of showcasing your work. We met at Alchemy and I know that you’ve screened films there two years in a row. What’s the process like, of like, this festival process like, of submitting a film and going and showcasing it? Um, you did really well on the Q&A as well, amazing.

AUTOJEKTOR: Oh, thank you. Well, it’s interesting. It’s not like, it’s one of those ones where that’s where I’ll end up spending all the money is like putting into festivals. Which is, gets really disheartening when you spend a lot and, like, you get nothing back. So it’s like, it’s like, again, like, all my films are made to be cheap. I don’t know anything about funding, like, that world’s so separate to me. But it’s like, the money, like, so much of it will go into the film festivals. You end up getting quite disheartened with a lot of them. That’s why I really liked Alchemy. Like, they really give a shit. Like, they really care. And it’s like, you get there, you get to experience, like, everything. They remember you. Like, which is crazy. You actually get to meet everyone that works there, and they really genuinely care about you as a creator, and you submitting your film. So, every year, bam, I will make a film. If I haven’t got one, I will make a film for Alchemy Film Festival by this point. Because they really, like, it’s just that nice. But so much of it is just you get there, it just gets put on a cinema screen and there is no, there’s nothing else about it. Like, there’s not even a Q&A, there’s not even a discussion. There’ll be a bar that people go to when everyone goes home. And so, that’s why I’m slowly moving more and more, like, into experimenting with more expanded cinema. Again, like, when I was talking about Basilisk, I’m like, this is not a cinema. Style film. This is not a screening film, which is why a lot more of my work is moving into loops and like being like permanent fixtures on a wall. More to be viewed like paintings rather than actual just here’s four minutes, here’s three minutes. And a lot of the imagery is made in that kind of thing. Like you watch five seconds of one of my films and you know what the image is. And like, the concept will get built and like, a narrative will build from like, understanding that image. But you can grasp the same thing by just watching the same thing in the same way you view a painting. Like, you can watch the view of a painting for a minute and get as much out of it if you’re like, tuned into it. Or you can stand there for half an hour and really observe the details. So that’s the way I like to make films, that’s the way I like people to view them. It’s kind of more active and like, you can come in and you can leave. So a lot of my stuff, I don’t feel like it works, like, most of the ones that I do submit will work in a cinematic context, just kind of has to, because it’s not going to go anywhere else, but like, there’s something else to just the viewing of moving image in other contexts to add to it. Because again, if all of my films are about violence, they’re all about anger, why would you be sitting comfortably? Like, why do you get, why are you allowed a seat? Why are you allowed to, like, a cushion? A cushioned back and a cushioned bottom. Why is it warm in there? Why does it smell good? Like, why is it not sticky? Why is it not clammy? Why are you not standing awkwardly, like, in a bunch of, like, sweaty bodies, you know? So, like, that’s something I really want to slowly start moving into. Like, if I get, like, start working on funding, budget, just actually altering the whole cinematic experience. Yeah, so it is interesting. It’s also, like, what kind of places, like, are going to appreciate the film, what kind of curators are going to, like, actually build the program so it works. Like, if I got, like, a nice little queer comedy ahead of mine, and then, like, after that, there’s, like, another comedy, and I’ve just got 40 seconds of sheer violence. Kind of like, oh, it’s like, all right, like, that’s fine, but it’ll get drowned out. So it’s just interesting, but again, like the actual viewing experience and like the places it goes is such a big bit, and again it is so much of the funding has to go there like so much of your allocated money. It doesn’t matter how much, how cheap you try and be how much you try and fund it out of your own pocket and how much the film becomes a part of that again, my films look like that because they are cheap they are made with blood like real blood because that’s, it’s interesting, but it’s cheap. If I need red, it’s gonna cost me a bus ticket and at least a fiver. If I need red, I just (cutting sound) easy peasy, you know? Yeah, so the actual process of submitting the films, I don’t know. I’ve, like, it’s really good, and, like, there are so many really nice little ones out there. The bigger ones, like the BFI, like, I’d like to be in the BFI, but it’s too much money to submit, like, every year without getting anything back, and then, like, like, pushing it that much, if you haven’t got a budget, it sucks. Um, so they’ve just gotta, like, take it into your own hands, you go online, you really try and push it that way. There are some festivals that give a shit, that are really nice, but, like, they’re few and far between, which is quite sad. It’s like, you get bored of like, spending so much time on a thing and it just getting shoved on a showreel that doesn’t work. Especially with like, gallery exhibitions, I’ve had a couple, and the thing about film is sort of like, there’s an idea of the way it should be screened. And I feel like curation, it needs to catch up a little bit. There needs to be, like, a little bit more oomph about how we show films, especially in a gallery context.

INDIGO: I know recently you also moved into doing workshops. Um, and I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about that. So I went to… One of your workshops and camp trans, which was really, really fun. And it was my first time actually working with 8mm film and destroying it. Yeah. How did you come up with the idea of doing the workshop and like, how’d you find running them?

AUTOJEKTOR: When I, like I was coming up with the Roe Darling Archives and I was coming up with like all these more like expanded, like this moving into digital as well. So it’s like, how have I got this one particular process that I’m really into, that I really love. That’s like, it can be really expensive, and how do I move it into other things? So we move it to digital, we move it into an archive idea, we move it into a live performance thing. So I also started doing that as well. And then, how do we move it into other aspects? So the workshop just came up as another bit of that. So it’s like, how do, how can we move this into like a teaching environment? And again, it’s like one of those things that I was saying earlier, it’s so tactile and it’s so kind of like easy to understand from a non, like, filmic mind, from a non artistic, from a non creative mind. It’s just, oh, whatever I do, as long as you can see it, it will work. As long as it can go through a projector, it can work. So the actual teaching of that level of that is quite easy. What’s difficult is to push people to that limit of just being like, you’ve got a border, just stay in the margins and do anything. So again, this is why like, I was pushing, I talk about blood a lot. Because it’s one of those ones that a lot of people are kind of like, it’s icky, you know, it’s one of those ones. Again, like burying film in meat. That’s another like, icky process, but it creates such a good thing, but it requires that level of going outside of a comfort zone. So like in the workshop, again, a lot of people want to do animation. I’m like, yeah, you can, but have you thought about not bothering with the idea of working frame to frame and then using it as just a pure canvas? And so it’s really opening up people to thinking about moving image in a different way. Also the artistic process in a different way. Again, like if you have a canvas, it’s like, what am I going to draw? It’s like, why are you drawing? You don’t need to draw in it. You can do anything to make the canvas into a sculpture. Like if somebody just gave me a scrunched up bit and covered it in shit and just went push it through the projector. So, purely conceptual, I just went, no, my artwork is that you are gonna make this go through a projector. I’m like, yeah, go on then, I’ll do that. Like, so like, just, it’s that way of like, pushing people to just pushing the boundaries as far as they can. And as long as it works, it works, and it’s just, it’s a very interesting thing. So it’s like, trying to teach that was an interesting idea, and then just actually teaching that is super interesting, and seeing, yeah, so the first workshop, we had an hour, uh, it was at a camp, we were in the rain, we were shoved into a tent. Yeah, 30 people wanted to do it. I’m like, yeah, all right, I’ve got, I’ve brought enough for way over 30 people because I thought there’d be room. We managed to, like, in an hour, I managed to, like, we managed to convey what we were doing, get everyone, like, into doing some basic processes. We used pins, we used bleach, we used sort of, like, just masking tape, ink, really basic stuff, like, really easy to get hold of stuff, and then just opened it up conceptually to just, by the way, you can do anything to this. And we had a group of 30, and in an hour, we made like a 5 minute film. Just easy. Just, it was nice. And then we had a screening later on. It was dead cute. And the film was genuinely impressive. Like, people to get, like, grasp the concept of what they needed to do. And just create. With just like the smallest amount of limitation, but a very firm limitation is just a very nice way to create. And it’s again, it’s like why I’ve been back, like stuck to this general concept and then like move that and expanded it. Cause it’s just a really interesting level of limitation to work under and it really breeds creativity. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to stay away from, like, creative block. Cause again, if you have like everything under the sun to make a film out of, it becomes impossible to narrow that down to something. So yeah, it’s just, I feel like it’s just a really lovely medium to teach. And it’s fun to teach, and I feel like people really enjoy it. And plus you get like a film screening at the end, on like an actual camera, actual projector. It is adorable. It’s really cute. 

INDIGO: It was really cute. It was really, really cute. Yeah. 

LEO: I was thinking that it must have felt really nice to be able to see the work after. Just like do the manual crafting and reshaping of the film and then just being able to sit and enjoy it and be able to take it in as well. Like, everyone else in the room made that together. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Whenever you’re making it, you kind of like, unless you really understand it, like, I’m at a point where I can make the film and I know how it will look. But because you’re not view, you’re viewing it like, you’re almost viewing it in fourth like, as a fourth dimensional being looking down at time, all simultaneously frame by frame. So, like, I can view it from that point, but everyone doing the workshop’s so new to it, it’s just like, I’ve got no idea which is, like, I have an idea of which one’s my film, like, I drew this on that, or my one’s got purple dots in it, so it’s like, you kind of, like, come up with a signature to, like, try and figure out what is yours, but you don’t necessarily know which is yours, because you also don’t really know what your, what footage you’re manipulating either, because you don’t get a proper look at it. You get all of it in just one big expanse. So, everyone’s just viewing their work for the first time as well. So, it’s a really nice little reveal for everyone to actually go like, oh, I made that and that’s how it looks like in motion. So it’s, it’s, it’s just really cute. It was just very cute. 

INDIGO: Yeah, it was really lovely to see it projected into a barn. Like, when it was rainy and everyone was, like, close together, it was really sweet. 

AUTOJEKTOR: I’m really happy it was rainy, because it made everyone go in the barn. And so we could actually… it was good, yeah, yeah.  

LEO: I feel like that really builds community as well. I don’t know, it just feels really nice. I would like to be there for the next time there is a workshop. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Oh, well, I’m doing one for SQIFF. 

LEO: Oh, I know. I know, I will be there. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Right, I think it’s just like, because whenever, like, I was coming up with the, uh, with the workshop, because I haven’t done one before, so I was like, okay, so what other point, talking points can we talk about? But I think there’s fundamentally, like, something about this process, and glitching, like digital glitching as well, which is a fundamentally, like, trans thing. I feel like there is something about, like, the idea that film, you’re given this thing that is considered precious, that is not supposed to be touched, it’s supposed to be reserved and left in its one particular way, and just coming in saying no. Throwing a bunch of chemicals in, making it, like, it’s own thing outside of, like, what this physical body should be.

LEO: Alchemy. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Yeah, we do it. It’s how we, like, exist. It’s like one of those ones where it’s like, just going, No, this is not how film needs to be used. This is not what film has to be. There’s no one way of doing it. You can go outside of this body and then just alter it and make it something way more magical than it ever was intended to be. And then also you’re going in and you’re stealing stuff, you’re stealing images from a bunch of old white people, like, and then you’re altering them as well. There’s something, it’s just, it is just. Taking something and just doing what you want with it. It’s like, there’s a level of dis ownership with that. And it’s their thing, but fuck it. It’s mine now. I’ll have it. They weren’t doing anything good with it anyway. 

INDIGO: And um, and I know you work with other forms, other artistic forms, like tattooing as well. And I know you’ve tattooed some of your work on your own skin which is really great and I would love to get a tattoo by you one day. But what other creative practices are you interested in?

AUTOJEKTOR: So like there’s, if I’m interested in something I’ll always end up trying it. Out of like the ones that have actually, like, turned into a thing. Uh, the performance work, um, I just started doing it, uh, like, recently as well. So this is bringing back, like, um, like, my musical skills back into the picture. So it’s, again, it’s another way of showing, like, screening films. So, like, the idea was going back to, like, the old silent films, you have a live orchestra. But let’s just do it the way I want to do it. Let’s do it with, like, I play violin and I play bass. So this is primarily, like, a violin bass thing. So it’s like this, it’s a load of noise, it’s a load of harshness, it’s my film screening in the background, me just with a distortion pedal, reverb, pitch shifter, violin, violence, noise, aggression. Five minutes and we’re over with so like the music is coming back into it as well. So that’s really interesting and I’m really, like, happy to be performing again. Because there’s this thing about film where it’s like you finish it and you kind of have to let it just go, and it’s like that’s fine, but I’ve got a lot of energy and I need to get that out still. So like, getting that done with film is difficult. So but that’s an interesting thing. The other stuff I tried I tried pro wrestling for a bit. That was… I’m not built for it, I’m not built for it. It’s not the physical stuff, I can do the physical stuff. I really wanted to get into, like, the, um, more extreme side. Really wanted to get thrown onto a pile of thumbtacks. That was kind of like my ultimate dream. Like, as soon as I can do a match and I get thrown onto, like, a pile of thumbtacks, then I’m happy, I can do it. But, um, there’s a lot of health and safety. It’s, uh, wrestling is probably one of the most dangerous things you can do. So just health and safety wise, I’d have to be doing it, like, every day for, like, three years before anyone would consider stepping in a ring with me. Uh, I’m a little bit impatient for that. So, like, I still love it. And as an art form, as a storytelling medium, it is incredible. There are some YouTube videos about that, that just… There’s a guy called Super Eyepatch Wolf, and he’s got, like, a three part series. It’s about two hours in length of, like, the storytelling angle of wrestling. It’s incredible, like, what that medium, what that art form is, and how it’s also considered total trash at the same time. When really, it’s probably, as far as storytelling mediums go, the most complex thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Like, it’s both, like, real, non real, real time, fake time, everyone’s like a character and a real person and everything happens at the same time. Uh, it’s, it’s incredible. I can’t explain it, I’ll just gush. But it’s one of those ones I’m really into, but I just, I just can’t, I just can’t do it. I’m too, I’m not, I’m not patient enough. I wish I could. I’m going to try and bring bits of it into my performance arts, like in my performance work. A lot of barbed wire. I bought a cat like a tub of barbed wire for it. I don’t know. I don’t know what venues allow you to bleed in that kind of way. So we’ll see.

LEO:  I quite, I quite enjoy the concept of wrestling. It feels very camp to me. You’re just putting on a show and like being thrown around. It’s just…

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s like, the campest thing, it’s full pantomime. Like, as far as actual, like, me, like, performance work goes, it’s very similar to clowning, it’s very similar to pantomime. But like, you can see the funny stuff, and you can go see the silly stuff. You get to see the, there’s one really good match. Uh, I think it’s the promotion GCW, and they do Invisible Man vs. Invisible Stan, and it’s just a referee performance with two invisible wrestlers, and all of the audience are involved in it, right? So it’s like, this fourth dimensional thing where it steps out of the fourth wall and involves the audience. The match after that is just two dudes shoving nails into each other’s faces for real. Like, it is crazy how camp it can get to how just disgusting and violent the sport can well, sport, I’m fuck it, I’ll call it a sport. It’s better, it’s better than sports. But like, it’s just the juxtaposition between comedy and just violence and the types of artists it attracts is incredible. Like, the wide range of people that get into it that cannot function in any other art form. It’s just, yeah, the behind the scenes, you got the Dark Side of the Ring is a series you really need to look into as well. Uh, there’s too much, I can gush too much about it. It’s just, I like, I like, obviously I talk about blood a lot. I like artists that bleed for their medium. So wrestling is just, I really understand it, I really understand them putting in that much, and I’ve got a lot of time for anyone that tries wrestling, even starts it. It’s just like, I get it, and I get why you want to do this. But sadly, no, I don’t think I’ll ever become the pro wrestler that I want to be. 

INDIGO: Maybe one day. 

AUTOJEKTOR: Maybe. Still push it. DDP started at 36, so I got three more years till that. So we’re fine. 

LEO: What advice would you share for trans creators that are just getting started?

AUTOJEKTOR: I think it’s just have fun. Like, as long as you’re creating something that you enjoy creating. Because I think it’s like, there’s also that, um, idea that create what you want to see as well. So like, if there’s something that you really want to see, then just make it, because nobody else is going to make exactly what you want. So like, as long as you’re like, you’re creating stuff that you want to see, and that you enjoy, I think that’s fundamentally it. Because you have to enjoy making it, otherwise you’re not going to make anything good. And you’re going to have to want to see the outcome, like you actually, what you’re making needs to be something that you cannot find anywhere else. That you feel like needs to be out there. And then, that’s kind of it. And then the sad part is that people might not care or give a shit, but you have to, that’s just gonna be why you create anyway. Or, everyone will. Or you just have to find an audience. I think that’s it. It’s just fundamentally, as long as you’re creating what you want and you enjoy it, that’s it. That’s all you can do. There’s not really anything else. But then also, if you’re already creating at this point, you’re already doing that. So that’s a weird bit of advice, non-advice. It’s just like, just keep doing it, just whatever it is. But yeah, there’s no point in comparing yourself to other people or anything like that. As long as you’re doing shit that you enjoy. 

INDIGO: Yeah, I need to remind myself of that more.

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s like, it’s like anything, like, at the moment I’m getting really into, like, AI generated imagery purely so I can see some new shit that I’ve never seen before. So it’s just like, I’m like, kind of viewing it and I’m getting into it. And I’m like, am I viewing this as like a creator? And am I saying this is my artwork? It’s like, no, I’m just going to a gallery of shit that, like, what do I want to see? I want to see sort of, like, some, like, weird ass, like, erotica, where people are, like, half crab. I’ll show you some stuff. I’m trying to get into this. Like, also, full glitchy, Like, monster, erotica, like, found footage sort of thing. So I’m like, let’s see that for a bit. And then you can just find it that way. And it’s like part of the creative process. And then you’re just kind of just done. And you can just move on. It’s interesting. So that’s a good way. If you’re just ever bored, it’s another way of consuming stuff that is just not… But you’re also creating. I don’t know, I wouldn’t say you’re creating, you’re curating if you’re getting AI generated imagery. Again, it’s another thing where the boundaries you can just push, like, it’s just, yeah, I don’t know, that’s another fun thing. If you’re bored, you can just do that for a few hours. 

INDIGO: So, you just mentioned that you’re, um, delving more into AI and stuff, but are there any new projects in the horizon that you’re planning already?

AUTOJEKTOR: Totally new stuff. No, we’ve kind of just got a load of bits that have been started. So again, like the workshops have been started. So it’s going to be moving along further with that, just pushing that a bit more. Again, live performance work. It’s again, like working with that, tuning that into sort of like going into playing my actual gigs. We’re going to, I’m going to have to start recording like songs and start promoting it in that kind of way in order to get that further out. Also got the Roe Darling Archives have just had an exhibition here in London so it’s like let’s push that a little bit further, whilst also building the archives at the same time. And then, like, yeah, like I’m saying, like, uh, there’s the AI, I’ve just had the idea for the AI erotic stuff, but that might just not even come into a thing, I’m starting to think maybe it’s just literally a scrapbook. So again, it’s just like, if I find something, and I’m like, there’s something in this, it might become a thing, it might. But, um, no, those are the main things. So, like, the workshops, the live performances, and, um, we’ll just kind of see. We’ll just see what happens, really.

LEO: It’s been very lovely to meet you and chat to you about your practice. I was very excited to discuss your practice with you because I really enjoyed just snooping around what you’ve sent us and what you have online. And I’m very looking forward to the workshop. But yeah, before we go, I’m going to ask you the very last question, which is, do you have any media, it can be queer, it doesn’t have to be queer, any media can be films, books, podcasts, video games, anything, but yeah, any media that you would like to recommend to our audience? 

AUTOJEKTOR: Art, like, pure, just, like, good art wise. I’m really into this artist, Aun Helden. She’s from South America, transfem, and you’ll basically, as soon as you look her up, Aun Helden, you’ll get exactly why I love her shit. It’s like this weird ass, like, erotic body horror, slime, like, snail, mollusk, like, just, monsters? Animals? I don’t know. But they are just gorgeous and they are beautiful and it is just disturbing and sexy and terrifying all at the same time. So if you get her on Instagram, it’s great. And then her stories are all thirst traps. So it’s just like, I just love you. I love you so much. So she’s like, my one at the moment. I’m like, just, just check her out. She’s fucking amazing. Um, yeah, like, builds these, like, big ass costumes, they’re incredible. Anything else? Like, I’m big, if you’re looking for something to read, I’m huge, hugely into Junji Ito. Like, that’s one of my big ones. Anything around that. Anything body horror, essentially, is, uh, my jam. I’ve been playing a lot of Dark Souls 2, which is apparently the worst one. But, you know, I’m excited to start playing Dark Souls 1 because I’m not going to buy a new console until they get cheap. That’s about it, really. Yeah, kind of that, I’m just consuming a lot of, um, AI generated shit. I’m just, again, really into it. It’s just really fun just being like, oh, let’s have a look at this. 

LEO: That sounds great. I’m just scrolling through the Instagram of Aun Helden and it’s wow. Wow!

AUTOJEKTOR: It’s a lot, it’s like, again, it’s one of those ones, it’s sort of like costume, it’s film, it’s this, and I’m like, it’s so, it’s, there’s just a lot, there’s a lot going on there.

LEO: Well, thank you so much for joining us. 

INDIGO: Thank you.

AUTOJEKTOR: Well, thank you.

[upbeat drum based song]

LEO: I loved this conversation with Autojektor. It was very special to have her join the podcast as a guest. 

INDIGO: Make sure to follow Autojektor on social media to check out her work. Her Instagram handle is at @autojektorx and her website is autojektor.com. Her links will be on the episode description for your convenience, and you can always find out more via our Instagram, where we tag interviewees and share their media recommendations.

LEO: Thank you so much for listening to this amazing episode and stay tuned for our following episode next month.

[upbeat drum based song fades]